Hello and welcome to I Don't Speak German, the anti-Fascist podcast in which I, Jack Graham, and my friend Daniel Harper have conversations about the far right's conversations. Daniel tells me what he learned from years of going where few of us can bear to go and listening to what today's far right – the alt-right, white nationalists, white supremacists, nazis, etc. – talk about and say to each other in their safe spaces, their podcasts, their Youtube videos, their live streams, et cetera. The Waffle SS I call them, and do they waffle. Daniel listened so we don't have do. Needless to say, these are terrible people and they say terrible things, so every episode comes with a big content warning. Daniel and I talk freely about despicable opinions and acts, and sometimes we have to repeat the despicable things that are said, including bigoted slurs. So be warned.

And this is episode 34 of I Don't Speak German, coming to you live from Antifa Central Control in our evil undersea base.

Yeah, it's I Don't Speak German, and we've had a bit of a big day today, haven't we, Daniel?

I don't know what you're talking about.

No?

I just had a really boring day, certainly on Twitter. [laughs]

Yeah? Nothing much happening?

Nothing much happening, no. We've been written about, in the Daily Beast. [laughs]

We have?

We'll get there shortly I think.

Our episode today is called The Grift Question, which is... we're just going to tease you with that before we get into the actual subject of the episode, The Grift Question. Do you want to actually talk about our Daily Beast article first, before we get into it?

Yeah, I felt we'd start there. So this one is a little bit of an extension of last week's Nazi infighting stuff. There's kind of more stuff going on.

Jack, I don't know, are you a fan of Parks and Recreation at all?

I've never seen a single minute of it.

Well, there's a character who's a kind of like a – he's one of the charming male leads, he shows up around season 3. Well, halfway through season 2. He's sort of this super-accountant, boyish-genius kind of character, and he continually goes to almost work for one of the accounting firms in the fictional town. Every time he goes to work for that firm, they're so excited to get him because they're all really stuffy people who just love Super Accounting Nerd. And then every time he ends up failing to actually stick around. He leaves after a day. This happens six or seven times throughout the course of the series. It's kind of a recurring joke. And that's kind of how I feel about our ever-promised and never-appearing Kevin MacDonald episode. Because I know people would really want to listen to that. [laughs]

Oh, I see.

And yet every time we start to do it... Literally as of like yesterday I was like, no, we do the Kevin MacDonald episode. And then we just yank it from our audience, as if... like a bone from a dog. Like a toy from a small child.

Hm.

I'm Montgomery Burns in this metaphor.

Yeah, I wondered where you were going with that. Yes, that's right. We dangle it before you and then just refuse to actually deliver it. Like a particularly sophisticated dominatrix, dangling the whip in front of her chained pig slave, but refusing to ever actually hit him with it.

You sound... we'll just let that one go. Let's let that one go for now.

Good.

[laughs] That's probably best for this context. Anyway, so... I promise we will do Kevin MacDonald one of these days. I have pages of notes for it and then we just never manage to get it done. But it will happen. I keep hoping somebody else will just do it for me so I don't have to deal with it, but yeah...

So today we're going to... I think it's important to cover big news as it's happening, particularly as we're more and more involved with what's happening in this world, and people are kind of noticing us. That's why I feel like I don't want to make this a This Week in the Alt-Right podcast or whatever. I want to keep a bigger perspective on things. But it is also kind of necessary to let people know when there are big things happening. And this isn't quite as big as maybe the stuff happening last week, but... they're all arguing about money, and that's really interesting. It's happening right at this moment as well. So we'll get into that. But before that, we should probably talk about a piece that's tangentially relevant to us in the Daily Beast.

That's right. And we're recording on the evening – well, from my point of view anyway, because of course Daniel and I are in different time zones, but –

From my point of view it's the evening of the day during which – the morning of which – I've gotten completely lost now – the Daily Beast article about Daniel and I Don't Speak German dropped. Which has been a very exciting day from my point of view. Lots of new followers. Hello everybody. Lots of new listeners as well. Hello everybody again. I was pleased with the article, to be honest. I really was.

Oh yeah. This will be the first link in the show notes. It is entitled This Podcaster Dug Into the World of Neo-Nazis, Now They've Put a Target on Him. And it is written by Nick Martin, who contacted me a couple of weeks ago. He's a freelancer. He was incredibly respectful and did a really great job telling this story in a clear and respectful and everything kind of way. I have no complaints about the process or the finished product, honestly, which is...

You know, as someone who talks about people kind of antagonistically – I don't want to say for a living, because not many people pay me for this, you know – certainly as someone who does this pretty much full time at this point, it is worth acknowledging that there is an inherent anxiety to knowing that someone else is telling your story, to some degree. Nick Martin did a great job of that. So thank you to Nick for treating that well.

Yes indeed. Shoutout to Nick. Good job, thank you very much. And also, my apologies to Nick on a personal level because he did – he was extremely patient trying to talk to me online, and eventually didn't get anywhere talking to me. Which was my decision. Because, as I said to him, there's basically nothing I can tell you that Daniel doesn't know. My role here is basically just to be the guy that Daniel talks to.

So yeah, we had some correspondence and he was very nice and very patient with me. So yeah, good man. Thank you very much for everything, Nick. So that's been really great. We've had an overall very positive response to it.

Definitely, much more... the one weird thing that happened was Rick Wilson, the Never Trump neocon dickhead who writes for the Daily Beast, retweetet it... [laughs]

[laughs]

...and now follows me on Twitter. I just want to be clear that: [laughs] You should get an idea of how I feel about that by the fact that I called him Rick Wilson the neocon Never Trump dickhead, right. I think he is now my most famous follower. So we'll see how long that lasts. That was just amusing this morning when I saw Rick Wilson retweetet me and then suddenly I'm getting – [laughs] suddenly the MAGA crowd jumps into my mentions for twenty minutes. It was kind of amazing.

Normally they don't notice me. I'm beneath their notice because I'm not talking enough about Trump.

Yeah. We also had a bit of a shoutout from – oh God, I'm spacing on her name. The journalist, Talia...

Talia Lavin.

Talia Lavin, that's right. As you said on Twitter, it's possible in that case that we might come to the notice of a certain Mr Tucker Carslon.

Because Tucker Carslon has a little bit of a hate boner for Ms Lavin.

He does rather, yeah. We I think redounds enormously to her credit.

She is wonderful. We DMed a bit, here and there. So Talia and I are familiar with each other, at least from a distance. I've really appreciated her journalism. Her Twitter is hilarious. Before Rick Wilson decided to follow me, she was my most famous follower. She was very nice too to tweet that article out and tag me in it not once but twice. That's lovely.

She just followed me today, so that's big ups.

Anyway, we should get into the article a little bit. It basically just tells the story of this podcast and how it was created, and if you're listening... we assume we're getting new listeners on this episode, but if you've been listening for a while it's not going to tell you a whole lot that you don't already know about the history. But it is worth reading as a good summary. As it's pretty much exactly the story I told him, which is of course the one hundred percent accurate objective truth, because it was the version I told him. It also tells the story of – a little bit about Jarrett William Smith, AKA Anti-Kosmik 2182, the one who decided to threaten to burn my house down and kill Beto O'Rourke and blow up CNN.

It does give a little bit of that context. I'm actually just going to read a little bit of this and then comment on a certain other person who decided to comment on our most recent episode, episode 33.

[sarcastic] Yeah.

[laughs]

It's not Dingo again, is it?

No, no, Dingo... we'll leave him alone for a week. That'll be for the best.

Okay.

We'll get there in a second.

'In early September, Harper and his cohost' – that's you, Jack.

It is, isn't it?

It is. 'Harper and his cohost released a pair of episode that focused on the adherents of an obscure neo-nazi author named James Mason. A book Mason wrote has become a bible of sorts for terrorists and neo-Nazi groups like Atomwaffen Division, and this has helped spawn a new wave of so-called accelerationists – people who believe societal collapse is the quickest way to create an all-white ethnostate. Many of those adherents flocked to Telegram, the encrypted messaging app, in recent months after getting booted from other social media platforms.'

'And they’ve created their own enclave there, which they refer to as "Terrorgram." It was there, in the Terrorgram community, that the threats against Harper took shape. On September 11, an anonymous post appeared on one of the Terrorgram channels, telling people to send Harper "fan mail" at his address in Michigan. The following day, the same channel published a video from someone who drove by the address and filmed the house. "Howdy, antifascist activist Daniel Harper," the text of the post read. "Nice place you've got there." The posts set off a wave of chatter on Telegram. In the midst of it was a user who went by the handle "Anti-Kosmik 2182," who chimed in with his thoughts about what to do about Harper. "Ditch the car somewhere a few blocks away, take back alleys, trails in the woods, etc., and then come up on the house wearing a mask," he wrote. "I’m not saying do anything illegal, but I am saying it would be a real shame if all he has went up in literal flames." In court records, the FBI later said that "Anti-Kosmik 2182" was Smith, an infantry soldier stationed at Fort Riley, Kansas.'

'The bureau also revealed that it had an undercover agent on Telegram who was interacting with Smith around the same time.' There is much more to this piece. It's definitely worth reading the whole thing, but I think that gives some detail that I left out of the last episode. Because I wasn't inclined to talk in detail about [laughs] what exactly was the nature of the threat. The additional information in there – there's still stuff that's left out of that summary, believe it or not. There's more. But that does give you a little bit of additional context. I think for obvious reasons I was trying to sit on that for a little bit longer.

I love that they went for the classic nice place you have here. It's almost the full classic nice place you got here, be a shame if something happened to it. I always like it when people go with the tried and trusted favorites.

I also love that he's going in to such – he's taking such care – ditch the car a certain distance away, wear a mask, while he's actually talking to an undercover agent. I think that's very funny.

This was in the absolutely public, like anbody can log in to a Telegram channel. This wasn't even in the private chat with somebody.

Alright, so Terrorgram is just public to anybody.

Terrorgram isn't even really – I mean I think there is one called, like – so let me be honest. I haven't spend a lot of time in the Telegram groups. I mean I know they exist and I go on, I kind of check in on them from time to time. But there are people who do this work, who have infiltrated all the Telegram groups, who are inside of it, who spend as much time as I spend listening to podcasts and watching Youtube channels just tracking the people in these Telegram groups. And that's just diversity of tactics... there are other people doing that and it doesn't fit into the work that I do... in the same way. So I don't spend a ton of time there.

So welcome to our new podcast, I Don't Speak on Terrorgram.

[laughs] I Don't Speak on Terrorgram, right. Although, I mean, maybe – we may end up, I don't know – I might end up spending more of my time there, we'll see.

So I believe there is one actually called Terrorgram, but there are a whole lot of them. They all kind of share content back and forth, so you can like create a link in one and then share it to another Telegram group. The initial video of somebody driving by my house – and we don't know who it is, it's completely unidentified – was posted in the Bowlcast channel. There's an actual Bowlcast 333. There's a channel called Bowlcast 333. And that's the one that posted the original video. That's the original source of it. I have people who are expert in analyzing this data who tell me conclusively it was originally posted in that channel, by someone using the official Bowlcast Telegram handle.

So someone with access to that handle posted that video. Now that doesn't mean – it could have been shared to them, we have no idea who was the person who drove past. I highly doubt it was Anti-Kosmik 2182 who really just ultimately was memeing and doing his kind of bullshit thing of threatening violence from behind the keyboard ultimately.

Yeah.

And you know, as I said in the piece, and as I hope I make clear in the last episode: I never had any kind of context, like this particular guy was going to personally come after me. That was never the intent. That was never the fear. That's never the thing. It's somebody else who's closer, or somebody else who just going to decide to do something about it, in order to become one of the quote-unquote saints that they revere, you know.

Yeah.

That was always the worry. I hope that came across in the episode.

No, that was very clear to anybody who was, you know, actually listening, yeah.

[laughs] Sure. Well, Vic Mackey went on Goy Talk, a five-hour episode of Goy Talk, which is entitled Number 69. I have not included the link to that for a couple of reasons.

Nice.

[laughs] I've not included a link to that for a couple of reasons, the most important of which is just I have no idea how long it's going to stay up on the Internet. If anybody wants it, I have it, I can get it to you. I normally like to include links to this stuff, I also don't think any of our audience is going to go watch a five-hour video of these guys talking about nonsense, for like an eighteen-minute segment that's starting at three hours and fourty-three minutes.

But you can google the title and you can find it.

Hm

Yes, this is my life. Listening to these guys.

[laughs]

For five hours at a time. [laughs] Thankfully, I listen to it at high speed.

As I say in the intro, you do it so we don't have to.

[laughs] Right. So, the Goy Talk crew kind of talked about the episode and they're having some internal divisions right now. There's fighting, we'll get to it. And Mackey comes on as sort of an impromptu guest. Vic Mackey, he's the head guy at the Bowl Patrol, the Bowlcast. He's the HBIC of the Bowlcast. He's very proud of that. He's very proud that I am paying attention to him, which is very clear from listening to that.

Well, I empathize, because I'm always very proud when you pay attention to me.

[laughs] One of the things... so basically Mackey claims that I'm lying about him, and that I'm saying that he – I don't remember the exact words that he used and don't want to put words in this guy's mouth, but he's essentially playing a game where he's pretending that I'm saying that some official member of the Bowl Patrol, somebody in the Bowl Patrol group, the Bowlcast group, is doing that. That this Jarrett Smith is kind of buddy-buddy with these guys. Which, again, you have to miss the entire context of episodes 28, 29, and 33 to come away with that impression, right?

So he's implying that you're saying that Jarrett William Smith is member number 4972 of Bowl Patrol and he was issued with a directive from Bowl Patrol Central or something like that.

Right. He's kind of pretending that that's the claim that I'm making.

Yeah.

Ultimately, what these guys were always going to say is, well, I don't have any contact to that guy, he's not like an official member of the group. And one of the things that we've seen since the collapse – since the banning of 8chan, and since these guys had to kind of leave, and since they all kind of migrated to Telegram – back in the day, the Bowlcast Telegram group was like thirty people, right. And they were all pretty hardcore. They were all pretty vetted amongst themselves. There was a sense that that was kind of the core group. They would change names, and there were people who kind of filtered in and out, but there's a real kind of core. We know who the Bowl Patrol is, we know who the Bowlcast is, we know who these guys are. Since 8chan has gone away and all these people have just kind of gone and migrated over to Telegram, this group has several hundred, if not a thousand, members in it. That makes it much harder to track who's actually important in this and who isn't, right?

You have to track the conversation and do like maps of the individual people. It's a lot harder to get a quick sense of it. This is one of the arguments against deplatforming, actually, which is kind of a complicated argument on this side of the fence, and which we'll probably cover in more detail at some point in the future – the pitfalls, the promise and pitfalls of what deplatforming means, et cetera. One of the things about that is that suddenly it becomes a lot harder to track these guys for people like me, people tracking these Telegram channels, when it's filled with randos, essentially.

Yeah.

Now, Jarrett Smith was clearly being groomed here, done some training... he's connected to people who are connected to paramilitary groups Ukraine. This is a pretty hardcore guy. But there is no evidence that he was in the media environment of creating the Bowl Patrol. Certainly back in the early days of 2015, 2016.

And that's the out that Mackey is trying to do. He's trying to say, well look, he wasn't a member of the Bowl Patrol, and Harper's just lying about me. I never said this guy was Bowl Patrol. I said he's part of the Siegepill community.

Yeah

Which is absolutely true. He's also like, this didn't happen in the official Bowlcast channel, it happened in, what's it called – Slovak's Siege Shack is the name of the actual Telegram group. Yeah, duh. I never made that claim. To a certain degree, we're trying to avoid some of the intricacies in the interest of time and not boring the audience, which these guys clearly have no issue with.

Oh yeah. They don't care about that.

In fact, one of the criticism I got from the Goy Talk episode was, man, there's just no discourse here. It's just talk. They just pick a topic and talk for like an hour and then the show's over. It's like, yeah well, maybe people don't want to sit and listen to you guys bullshit and get drunk for five hours.

Yeah. We actually want people to listen.

[chuckles]

Maybe people who don't know anything about this maybe learn something, that's kind of our goal. Rather than just to spend our entire lives bullshitting at each other, you know.

I mean, not to say that we haven't done bullshitting to each other for our podcast before.

Yeah, but that's not this show, is it.

That's not this show, exactly. This is meant to be educational and informative, as opposed to a replacement for social life.

Let's face it, we have done extraordinarily long podcasts that were basically us and some of our friends bullshitting at each other. And they were fun. But there is a reason why they were downloaded by, you know, a hundred, maybe two hundred people. And these are downloaded by thousands of people.

Right. Absolutely. The other thing that they always tend to whine about is, like, he's like so interested in the soap opera. He's following the drama of the individual people and who they are and who they're fighting with.

That's their entire fucking subculture! It's just them having a fucking soap opera constantly!

Well, I mean, there is the, like, you don't talk about the ideas, you just talk about the people. We're trying to mix the two. It's also, well, your ideas are fucking stupid and they get debunked in thirty seconds when I try. And so we have to fill time somehow.

Yeah. [laughs]

But also it's about trying to humanize these guys. I'm trying to – I want you to understand who Vic Mackey is, or at least who his public persona is. I want you to understand who Cantwell is as a person, and understand him as a terrible human being, and a broken human being, with an awful ideology, who is on the verge of violence at almost any moment. But also I want you to understand him as a person with a past and a person with a history, who has a family and who has a life and who, you know, didn't have to be this.

That's the goal: to try to capture both the humanity and the awfulness, right?

Yeah.

These guys, they seemingly don't understand, or they're just kind of using this as, like, you treat this like a Marvel movie. Which I've think we've proved we don't even treat Marvel movies like Marvel movies.

That's right. We treat Marvel movies very seriously.

We treat Marvel movies as indictments of imperialist capitalism. It's just sort of one of those – if you're going to try again to entertain an audience, and you're going to try to talk to people and get them invested in trying to understand this stuff, you have to build a story, you have to build a narrative, you have to say something that makes sense in a – it has to have a beginning, a middle and an end. And I mean again, when your goal of being a podcaster is just to kind of sit and bullshit with your friends for five hours, you don't get that sense. I mean I hate to give these guys advice, but it's one of the problems with your fucking movement, guys:

It's all you do is this instead of, like – how do we reach normies? Well, maybe making content that people can approach.

Yeah.

But if you do that, you just come across as complete assholes. Anyway. I can fight that too. It's fine.

Although there are some of you that actually do want to build a movement. But I think there's more than a few of you that don't actually want to bother with that. That just want somebody powerful to get into power and do it for you, and all you actually want to do it sit around with your friends, who – you all secretly hate each other of course – and bullshit and show off and whinge at each other. That's actually what you want to do I think.

Which is ultimately one of the criticisms that they have of each other. Some of the time quite honestly.

There you go, it's a bit like that thing where – this isn't to take a position on this, this is a non-sectarian podcast, but, you know, there's the fairly good quip about atheism, which is that all religious beliefs are atheists regarding every religion except their own.

While these guys sometimes have very keen insight into the flaws of their own movement, it's just that they don't apply to themselves.

Right. They have insights into – this is a thing we need to be doing, we need to be working together, we need to have more solidarity. We need to, you know, do something. We'll talk about this in a second, when we get to the actual grift question. It was just fascinating, there were like two episodes that just sort of... anyway.

Yeah, so... Vic Mackey.

I felt it necessary to cover that. Just to say, this is Mackey's response, you know. He's a human being. I don't want to libel him or slander him. I want this coverage to be fair.

I think he's a terrible person, he's like threatened friends of mine with rape and death. He's pushing an overtly violent agenda of, you know, a worldwide or at least nationwide, blood running in the streets, et cetera. But I certainly don't want you to think that I'm lying about him. And that's what he's claiming.

But he's... yeah. If you'd said what he says you said, then he'd have a point. But you didn't.

Right. At first I thought, like, was I just that unclear? And I gave the audio to a couple of people and said, tell me what you think of this. And it's like, he's out of his fucking mind. It's like, okay.

Yeah.

Fair enough. That's all I really want to talk about about that. Thank to Nick Martin for the profile. It was very lovely and I hope – [laughs] we'll see what the long term effects are of it.

But I hope it brings more people to this show and kind of brings more people to listen to this and hit the fascists even harder. That's what I hope it does.

Yeah. It seems we might have even brought some people out of some pretty nasty situations they've been in, or contributed towards doing that as well. That's great. That's really, you know, really gratifying, to think that we might have helped to do that.

Oh yeah, definitely. I don't talk much about the emails I get. It's not germane [giggles] to the podcast.

I don't speak germane.

I don't speak germane, I only speak esoteric.

I thought I just spelled your subtle joke out in literal terms.

The little giggle I had there, yeah I know. I try not to talk too much about that sort of thing because it's private correspondence, and it's not like... If you've sent me an email – I'm really bad about getting back to people – if you've sent me a message, I will not read it on the air without your explicit permission.

It's just not something I do. Any time I do talk about things I obscure details, and so there's no kind of identifiable stuff.

I did speak to Nick about some of the messages I got, in kind of very general terms. And I have had people say, I was on the verge of maybe doing something terrible, and your podcast kind of woke me up. I feel humbled and honored to have that opportunity. It's just amazing.

Yeah. It doesn't get much better than that. And I can testify, to anybody who might want to get in touch, that Daniel is incredibly conscientious about this stuff. He's very careful about what he tells me, you know. And that's not from want of trust, it's just that he feels this conscientious, you know, necessity to play fair with people. So don't hesitate on that score, anybody.

Both people, I mean both fascists and anti-fascists, or people, try to...

I get the email all the time, like, what do you know about local organizing in X area. My answer is always, like, I have no fucking clue. I'm sorry, it's not the work I do. I've talked to on-the-ground activists who have similar conversations. It's like, how do you find somebody in your area? Oh, it's tough. It's really tough. And it's like, what are we doing to help that? Oh, it's tough.

[chuckles]

Most people who do anti-fascist work are incredibly localized. It's often like a town, or like a few counties, maybe a state, something like that.

Oh yeah.

Because it's so focused on the particular material conditions that are right here in our area, and the specific threats that are right here. And if you're not kind of a more national figure...

I don't necessarily know who these guys are, unless there's somebody who talks in front of a microphone that has something like a national or international audience. I'm not trying to say that the rest of that isn't important. Far from it. I think it's more important to cover the people who are close to the ground in your area. But that's just not the stuff that I'm doing, you know. And so when people do send me those messages, I'm very honored that people would think I would know, but it's also – I don't know, I'm sorry. [laughs]

[chuckles]

And so, yeah, please feel free to reach out to me. I will do what I can. Maybe I'll try to put together... or get somebody on who can give kind of general advice for that stuff, or put a link somewhere at some point. Anyway. We're far afield from the topic of this episode.

[sarcastic] Wow, that's unusual. So, the Grift Question. The GQ.

Yeah, so... they're arguing about money.

Now arguing about money is something that these guy do a lot, right? The fact that, for instance, TRS – the Right Stuff, the Daily Shoah guys – they've had a paywall since right around Unite the Right. Ten dollars a months. A they kind of make their living off of doing this. People didn't really feel bad about that at the time because they were doing a lot of in-person activism, they were traveling for the movement, and also there was this sense of like, these guys are (a) some of the biggest guys in this, and (b) they'd lost their jobs. So they needed support. But as it becomes clear that Enoch is less of a movement organizer and more of a racist podcast host, it becomes a lot harder to justify. Like, what are we actually doing, except for just listening to stupid podcasts, you know, over and over again.

Nothing.

Why are we giving these guys money to just sit and make this content?

Why can't they get a real job again? Et cetera, et cetera.

Work for the movement, don't bullshit for the movement.

Right. I mean it's like, what are we doing here? I think this also – we've discussed this on previous episodes, but I guess a lot of them will find the podcast for this episode. There was a sense kind of in 2017, particularly in the eight months between the Trump inauguration and Unite the Right. There was a lot of sense that, like, this is all going to be done in like six months. We're going to see that mass deportations like in early 2018 or something. There really was the sense that they had that kind of momentum behind them. Unite the Right was going to be their shining moment, and it was all coming out of this era of – essentially just small protest, this kind of regular movement energy, and they could just drive it online. And what they don't realize it that they're not fighting a real axis of oppression, right?

They're not actually able to build a solidarity movement, because they're really just sitting and whining about, like, Harvard admissions benefitting people who aren't tradionally WASPy enough. Or, you know, we're poor and we have problems and we have opioid addictions. Real problems like that, but then it's like, we only care about it when it affects white people. Or, there's violent crime and the answer that we have for that is more prisons, you know. More violence. More state violence against African Americans and Hispanic people. They don't realize the systemic problems that sort of put that in there. And so when they do try to organize around this stuff, the second they reach any kind of resistance, they just sort of quit. And then they fight amonst themselves. It's just like – again, it's something that we kind of got into in the last episode, it's something we've talked about before. But I mean I get this – they talk about this all the time, this is a regular thing.

I wasn't really going to talk about Dingo in this episode because I talked about him enough, but that's one thing he says a lot. Why can't we, why are white people just not able to do this? We'll get into this in the Kevin MacDonald episode because it touches on some of those issues as well. There is a concept called pathological altruism, which is a big Kevin MacDonald trope. It's basically that white people have this pathological need to be nice to people who are not like them. As a contraindication to this I present you the entire history of colonialism and postcolonialism.

Yeah. Yap. This will be news to a great many people.

Yes indeed. We won't into that right now because it's not really the topic of this episode. We're trying to keep it slightly lighter than that. But, yeah, they talk about this a lot. They talk about, why can't we build a movement, what's preventing us from doing this? And then again, the answer –

Again, I don't want to give you advice on how to build a better movement, but ultimately, it's inherently self-contradictory to try to do the thing you're doing. All you can do it try to go back to a time that doesn't exist anymore, in which state violence in enacted against people you don't like. You can take control of the reigns of power if you manage to do that. I mean there are ways you can do that, I'm terrified that you're going to do that, and you can kill a whole lot of people. But again, Hitler's Thousand Year Reich lasted twelve years. You can't build a real thing out of this. It doesn't work. Anyway. One of the things they fight about when it comes down to this is money. About who's getting money and who's not. And should we get money and what kind of money should we take. The reason I wanted to do this one is that Richard Spencer recorded – I guess we should get – we did Richard Spencer in episode 1 and I fell really bad about episodes 1 and 2, particularly now that the audience is getting bigger and bigger. Because we hadn't figured out how to do this in those two episodes.

I feel like episode 3 is really the beginning of this podcast as far as I'm concerned. There's a lot of good information in them. I'm not like ashamed of them or anything. But it took us a few episodes to really get in the groove of figuring out how to do this podcast. We're still figuring it out to some degree. We don't know how to do this. [laughs]

No. We have no idea.

So one of the things that they've – so Spencer kind of has gone away. He was part of Heel Turn for a while. When Heel Turn broke up, and remember that the Vanguard Streaming guys, the Goy Talk Live crew, they were right up in there with Spencer, they were like the other half, or the other third, of Heel Turn, alongside Augustus Invictus and Richard Spencer. When that all broke up over internal divisions which are largely, in retrospect, probably based on who was and was not siegepilled –

Spencer kind of went back and started doing his NPI – the National Policy Institute – he's just kind of gone back and doing his old podcasting things with his old buddies. Right now he's doing – there's a channel called NPI/Radix. You can google it. You can go watch – he has a Youtube channel, he has an RSS feed, it's all kind of right there. I did include a link to the most recent episode, called The Grift Question, and some other stuff they discussed as well. It's called The Grift Question, you can find it there. He's calling the new show The McSpencer Group, which is basically a parody of the McLaughlin Group, which was the old PBS public debate channel, political debate chat show, by McLaughlin. Pat Buchanan was a regular guest on that.

It has a very specific format. I assume you've watched a least a little bit of this show, you're familiar with it?

No, I'm not. Sorry.

Oh, okay. I was assuming that the format would – you would at least heard something about it. McLaughlin would sit in the middle of a large panel of like five or six people. And he's like, [shouts] QUESTION! WHAT'S THE BEST WAY TO NUKE RUSSIA? This very kind of high-pitched, kind of aggressive style. And then it was kind of rapid-fire and has a very specific pattern. Well, Richard Spencer and his buddies have sort of taken over that basic pattern, and they're doing the McSpencer Group, which is basically the same thing, although they've lightened up on the – they used to do this in the alt-right politics podcast, and now they've kind of lightened up slightly on the format. It is very much very much a political chat show. They pick three or four topics and go through them, fifteen or twenty minutes at a time. If you're interested in the kinds of things that Richard Spencer has to say, it's actually a fairly listenable show, believe it or not.

They did a segment called The Grift Question in an episode they put out just a few days ago. Ultimately, what's happening is that the siegepill community, the skull masks, the skull boys – so called because all their avatars – they record wearing the skull mask across their face, and so they're the skull mask crowd or whatever, which is basically synonymous with the siegepill community, at least within this world. There is no particular reason to differentiate between them. The whole thing there is that these guys are trying to push violent revolution on one level or another. It's like, what's the point of creating a think tank, which is essentially what Richard Spencer is trying to do. What's the point of putting money into this thing, we've been trying to do this for seventy years.

Ever since the end of World War II there's been somebody somewhere trying to create the Return to White America using some form of ordinary electoral politics and think thanks, et cetera et cetera. And they're not wrong, that has been that way. Of course they've also been trying to overthrow the government through violent means for just as long. That also hasn't worked. So I don't know why they continue to have this argument, except none of them have read any history, and I kind of like it that way, so that's fine.

[laughs]

Actually a few of them have and they still debate them. They're having the same debates they were having seventy years ago. It's pretty glorious. Spencer is like, look, the thing is, if you want real power, you have to engage with the culture. You have to engage with the mechanisms that already exist. We have to professionalize. There have to people who are good at this, who can do it for a living.

So a sort of march through the institutions, you could say.

That's exactly what Spencer's goal is. That's always been his goal. That's his explicit plan, is to go through and change the culture, change the politics by changing the culture, and to create this whole thing. That's what he's trying to do. And the skull mask crowd is going like, why should we give you money, because you're just taking money out of other people's pockets, you know, who need it more.

Yeah? Okay? I see that.

It's weird because they're not even – again, like, the thing that they're trying to do is inherently contradictory, so it's not even like I can give them – I don't come down on a side, even to the degree that agree with their – I don't agree with their goals, obviously, but I don't come down on a side because neither one is really going to work, you know, ultimately.

But at the same time, you can sort of get the idea of, you know, they look at someone like Richard Spencer and, look, if you're a poor kid from West Virginia and you're twenty-two years old and you work at as a janitor, or you work in a MacDonald's – and lots of these guys work as janitors or they work at MacDonald's – and you're racist as fuck, and you want to create a white ethnostate, and you're saying why should I give ten bucks a month to a racist radio host who isn't doing anything? Why should I give any money, why should we fund people like Richard Spencer, who comes from old family money – Richard Spencer is descended from slave owners in Lousiana. So they're starting to – they're learning class politics, in real time. [giggles] If only we could reach them and say, like, it turns out maybe you have more in common with that black person at the cashier next to you that you despise, or the Hispanic person who's mopping the floor, than you do with a Richard Spencer.

Yeah, it'd be lovely if we could do that, but for the vast majority of them that – I mean that's why it's not actually class politics, because that avenue is already completely foreclosed upon.

Right. I mean, it's just the sort of thing where – I'm not saying that they're actually doing class politics, I'm sorry I was...

No, I understand what you say.

They're reaching in that direction, they're starting to kind of discover that. They're starting to sort of realize that issue, which... there's always been a hint of that. I don't want to say this is brand new. But I think it's interesting that you're seeing this very specific divide, which kind of mirrors the old optics debate, which happened after Unite the Right, where they were arguing about what kind of clothes we should wear and how we present the best face to the world. But they're actually starting to kind of reach in and go, why should we care about Richard Spencer? What is he doing for us?

And I do... to the degree that we have nazis listening to us, I do realize you have more in common with the gay people and the trans people and the black people and brown people that you despise. Realize that you're working for the same dollar that Richard Spencer will never have to work for.

Yeah, absolutely.

They won't listen to me because... I mean, hopefully, maybe they will.

It would be nice, wouldn't it.

It would be. I mean I hate to reach out there. I just know we got terrible people listening and as long as you're listening, please give us little bit of context there. What was even more interesting is that Goy Talk did an episode they called the Grift Talk. It seemed like they were sort of planning this slightly before Spencer did his thing, which kind of implies there's kind of a larger argument rumbling around in forums that I just hadn't quite picked up on until these last couple episodes. Goy Talk did an episode called Grift Talk and they brought on like a panel of people to sit and debate options. These guys are absolute batshit out of their mind.

[chuckles]

You have a guy saying, like, what we need to do is create an SPLC but for white nationalists. Like a pro-white, quote unquote, SPLC, that's just going to go and dox anti-racist activists and that's going to go and harrass them because that's what they think the SPLC does, right. It's just meant to harrass. Again, we can have our issues with the SPLC. There's lots of structural things and certainly I think there's some great people there that I know personally, and some great people I don't know personally, and there's a whole lot of shit that's all around that and I'm not here to piece it together, but the SPLC does a lot more. It's primary goal is not harrassing white nationalists.

No, exactly.

It's primary goal is informing and doing lawsuits and such. There's a guy, you know – PaddockSperg's plan is, we just need to – instead of giving money to podcasters, we just need to put an AR-15 in the hands of everybody, every white man in our town. Just arm people. Let's just spend a few hundred dollars on every single white man in a town to... How are you going to do that without organization? Right?

Yeah.

How are you going to make that happen [laughs] when you can't show your fucking face in public? Because you're terrified that people are going to find out about the terrible things you believe. They think they're just going to – they're all kind of like planning for this Boogaloo, they're planning for this revolution. The options that they give and the things that they talk about, the things that they think are reasonable, they all seem to agree that what we need to do is, we need to find legal defense funds for people who get arrested.

We need to find commissary funds for people who go to prison, prison support sort of stuff. Which is the exact thing they're all really, really bad at: funding stuff that isn't going to give them either immediate gratification in terms of punching a commie, or immediate gratifications in terms of laughing at a stupid racist podcast. It's kind of the ultimately clicktivism stuff, but it's even worse, it's literally just racist teenagers sitting around and jerking off to Happy Merchant memes, pretending they're building a movement.

Which they're not. They really need to study the history of their own ideological persuasion, you know. Because they could find out how – I mean, again, I don't want to offer them advice or help, but they could find out how fascist movements actually gain power. I mean, how it's actually done.

If they just bothered to look into the history of it. It's not done like this, you know. You have to have an alliance with the elites that you all hate and that don't want anything to do with you, et cetera et cetera. If all the stormtroopers had done was sit around, if all they'd done had been just sit around in the beer halls talking shit with each other, it never would have happened. It never would have gone anywhere.

Exactly. They're just having this argument, it's the continual thing about money. The ones that are trying to make money from this, the ones that are trying to professionalize. That's one to the things they have against Cantwell. It's Chris Cantwell – the Crying Nazi, for anybody who doesn't know. Everybody listening to this should Cantwell is at this point, but we probably have some new listeners, so... this is the Crying Nazi guy.

One of the big issues they have with him is that he's trying to professionalize, that he talks about how he can't get any funding all the time. We'll do a little bit of Cantwell News here at the end. The whole issue here, again, is sort of discovery of class politics, this sort of nascent understanding. I find it really interesting that this is happening now. Like, as the siegepillers, as the skull mask boys are starting to have actual institutional pressure put against them, and as they're starting to realize this is fucking serious, dudes. Like, a lot of these guys are getting knocks at the door from the FBI. A lot of these guys are getting knocks at the door from the FBI. It's pretty – again, not that we're sitting here in favor of the FBI. The FBI is a terrible organization.

We're not fans of the FBI.

We're not fans of the FBI... but, you know, if they're actually doing the thing they pretend to be doing, then at least give them some modicum of support.

At least you're not fighting leftists. At least you're not fighting people who are actually oppressed.

In this one instance anyway.

Right. Sorry, I'm trying to be flippant and I'm not quite coming across. A lot of these guys have gotten knocks on the door from federal agents. A lot of these guys are actually getting harrassed. Apparently this guy Augustus Invictus – I guess we'll have to do an episode on him. I have no idea what we're going to do for a whole episode on him. But we'll figure it out.

[chuckles] It'll be a fourty-five minute episode, something like that.

Yeah, maybe we'll do a twofer, like we did with Allsup and Fuentes, or something.

Oh yeah.

You know, he's a lawyer and basically he's been – a whole bunch of these guys who've been getting quote-unquote harrassment from the FBI. And he's been sending cease-and-desist orders and such. How all of this is going to work out for him –

I don't think he's a particularly clever lawyer, just from listening to him talk about certain issues which I actually do know a little bit about – the legal issues he's just completely avoiding. But, yeah, he's – they're having this problem and I think that as this is happening and as people like Jarrett William Smith are being arrested and as they're seeing that just because you're just shitposting on Telegram doesn't mean (a) that you're building a movement and (b) that you're immune from the consequences in the real world. It becomes – it's just sort of a fascinating kind of moment. And ultimately, what's the result of this? As they continue to feel the jackboot of the state, which is like, hey, stop harrassing people online. Stop threatening to burn people's houses down. You know, that's bad.

What kind of a pass has it come to when you can't just threaten to burn somebody's house down without being harrassed by the fascist government. It's outrageous.

As they continue to kind of feel this and as the movement continues to flounder and they continue to kind of spin their wheels... it just leads into more despair and more violence and more anxiety and more tension... and more of the stuff that leads to the mass shooting phenomenon. More of this kind of stuff. It is the sort of thing, it's really frustrating for me, personally. To know that's so many of these guys are actually hurting, to know that so many of these guys really do fear for their future. And they've been fed this pack of lies about white genocide et cetera, et cetera. They've been fed so much of this bullshit. But then they do fear losing their jobs and this precarity of the economic circumstances around them.

If they could just wake up and understand that their problem are not caused by the Jews. It's just not real. If they could realize that, they could come and be part of a real movement that... do something effective.

Or they could at least have an analysis of the world and what's wrong with it, and the ultimate cause of their specific problems that doesn't box them in to this vicious nihilistic cul de sac, where there's no way to go but out there, with a gun. Just completely shit the bed and commit suicide after taking loads of innocent people with you.

Exactly.

It's the capitalist system, guys. It's the capitalist system. It's not the Jews. It's not the black and brown people. It's capitalism.

Preach.

[open front vowel of exasperation]

We get a little maudlin, we get a little earnest, I know. One of the things we get credited for is being funny alongside our, like, exploring the darkness.

And smug!

And smug, yeah, that right, I forgot to mention that on this show. The one thing absolutely everyone of the nazis says about – not absolutely everyone but very nearly every single one – is like, they hate me because I'm their enemy. Vic Mackey says this guy Harper is your enemy on that episode of Goy Talk.

He is. So am I.

He's not wrong. He sees me as the enemy. He says I'm a pretty good host, like he likes the show I guess. He finds it entertaining. But they hate you, and they hate you.

[laughs]

They just hate your attitude towards – they call you smug, or smarmy, you know.

My attitude of utter contempt, you mean.

Right.

Well that'd be because I hold them in contempt. I do.

Not, ultimately, as human beings. As I say, you know, if they can be persuaded of how wrong they are and brought back over to the right side, or even just not that particular extreme of wrongness, then fine. Great. Cross over, children, all are welcome. But, you know, when you're a fascist, you're an enemy of everything I believe in and I fucking hate you and I hold you in contempt. So, you know, if I sound smug it's because I think you're shit.

I want to be clear about this as well. I mean it's just you're an enemy of everything I believe in.

Everything I believe in being democracy and equality and freedom.

I'm going to get more personal than that, honestly. These guys don't believe in the Holocaust. Okay, that's fine, you don't have to believe in the Holocaust.

Well you do.

You do.

You do, if you have any respect for facts.

We just set that aside for now, okay.

Okay, let's just set the Holocaust aside.

Let's just set, like, that atrocity of the 20th century aside. Like, one of the worst things that has happened in human history. Let's just set that aside for now. How are going to create this all-white ethnostate? What are you going to do? What happens to me on the day of the rope? What happens to the trans people that I consider dear friends? What happens to all the non-white people that I work with, that I live near? That I'm friends with, that I go to coffee with?

Absolutely.

Like, you're talking about, at best, second-class citizenship within an incredibly repressive police state for people like me. And at worst, murder. What reason do I have to get on your side?

Yeah. We know what happens to people like us and the people we love in your regimes. We know because we've looked at history, and you know too because you make jokes about it. You make jokes about helicopter rides and stuff like that.

We know that if you people get your way, we get rounded up into football stadiums and massacred. We get sent to torture chambers. We get sent to concentration camps. We get gassed to death. We know what happens. And I feel that – you know, I'm a white, cis, heterosexual man. I'm a WASP, for God's sake, you know. But I'm a Communist. I'm an avowed Marxist. I know what happens to people like me in your regimes. And there are people in the world that I love, you know, who are Jewish, or who are trans. My oldest friend in the world, my closest friend in the world is a lesbian. I've known her since college. I love her. You would murder her. So don't expect me to have anything but loathing and contempt for you. And I didn't have any feeling about you whatsoever until you chose to come out and start saying that me, and people I love, and people like them should be killed.

And even if you, you know – oh, we don't say that. Yes you do. "Peaceful ethnic cleansing." Fuck off, there's no such thing. You want us dead. You want our families dead. You want our friends dead. You want our comrades dead. You want millions of people dead, or as good as dead, or enslaved, or whatever. Fuck off. I have no truck with that whatsoever. You want me to have – no. I have no patience with you. I have concern for your feelings. So if you think I'm smug, yeah, I am, because at least – you know, I have a lot of failings, but at least I'm not a fucking nazi.

Let's lighten it up just for the end. I agree with every word of that. And again, what their response is going to be – well, you're plotting white genocide. We're going to do an episode on white genocide soon, I guess. About the concept and where it comes from. Bob Whittaker and his current bevy of sycophants. He died in 2017.

The white race doesn't exist, you fucking exist. There's no such thing. It's a invention. It's a social construct.

Their version of the oppression that they're fighting – this white genocide is like – brown people will live nearby. And therefore my kids will be statistically more likely to mate with them and therefore my grandchildren will be less white than I am. That's their really terrible – and like they also believe things about white crime rates and so on, which is complete nonesense – and then I have a statistically slightly higher chance of being beaten by some feral black or whatever. That's the really bad version of, like – that's what they're trying to prevent... by plotting to kill us all. Anyway.

That's all an excuse. You know, whether you're conscious of it or not, that's bullshit and it's an excuse to justify what you've already decided to feel. And you've hitched – if the only self-esteem you have in this world is pride about your skin color and this notional superiority that it gives you –

Black pride is different, I know, because black people had an entirely different material history. If you're self-esteem just comes from the idea that you're a member of the white race, then you really are fucking reaching, I'm telling you.

Right.

Get something else to feel proud about. Actually do something instead of just existing with pink skin.

Man, I kind of just want to end it there.

[snort]

We can do the other news in the next episode. I think that's a great place to end it, honestly. I had a little bit of Cantwell, but it'll keep. It'll keep, I promise.

Okay.

Let's just do that.

Alright then.

This will be episode 34.

Daniel's made the executive decision that we're going to end with my rant, my tired rant.

There's no way I'm going top that, ultimately.

I mean, look, I said, even if they were not threatening to kill me, I know the reality of this, right. I know the history. I've said after the Christchurch massacre, I've said on this podcast, I'm not fucking around anymore, guys. They gamified this shit. They turned this into – they do like achievements and high scores in their mass shootings. They're joking around about, you know, gass chambers and day of the rope and helicopter rides, et cetera et cetera et cetera et cetera. I'm not joking. This isn't a game for me. This is like everybody I know in a pile of bodies. This is what this is to me. And if you want to continue to mock me for having manboobs or you don't like my hat or you think my beard looks disgusting or whatever, I don't give a shit. I've got better things to do with my life than to worry about your opinion.

If you want to come to me and you want to leave the movement, or you're worried about your own safety, or the safety of someone around you or something, please, we can talk about that. Make fun of me all you want. I don't give a shit. This is serious shit we're doing here.

Yeah.

So how about that Patreon. As long as we're talking about the grifters here, you know.

That's right, yeah. Our own version of the grift question.

We're taking so much money from the anti-fascist community for making this podcast.

Give us money. I'm certainly descended from slaveholders, so I need it. Give me all your money so I can do it for you and you can just sit and talk shit.

We need to professionalize this movement. I'm creating a think thank. You know, Antifa think tank. It's going to be all capital letters with like the MASH font. It's going to be ANTIFA THINK TANK. That's what we're going to do.

Brilliant. As I say, we're broadcasting from Antifa Central Command in our undersea base. But we need another undersea base. So send us money.

Exactly.

SEA BASE 2. So that was episode 34. We didn't get to everything we were planning to talk about. We'll probably do that next week so that Daniel doesn't have to talk about Kevin MacDonald and The Culture of Critique.

It was really just kind of a brief thing but I'd rather just throw it at the beginning of an episode than the end, honestly. So yeah, we'll just do that next time. The plan is to do Kevin MacDonald, unless, you know, Trump invades the Netherlands or something and then I guess we'll have to talk about to that. Yeah, next week, Kevin MacDonald and The Culture of Critique and the Jewish Question. We'll finally get there.

I'll believe when I see it.

That was I Don't Speak German. Thanks for listening. We're on iTunes and show up in most podcast catchers. We try to release something every week, with a regular episode every fortnight. Please come back for more. Check out our back catalog of episodes and tell everyone you've ever met about how great we are. You can find Daniel's twitter, along with links to pretty much everything he does, at @danieleharper.

You can find my twitter at @_jack_graham_. Please get in touch if you have any suggestions, tips, information, praise, or anything to say, as long as you're not a nazi of some kind. Daniel and I both have Patreons and any contribution you can make genuinely does help us to do this. Though it also really helps if you just listen and maybe talk about us online to spread the word. If you'd like to give us stars and reviews on iTunes that'd be appreciated too. Bye for now, and ¡No pasarán!