Jack:
Hello and welcome to episode 29 of I Don't Speak German, the podcast in which I, Jack Graham, talk to my friend Daniel Harper about what he learned from three years of listening to the online far-night Nazis – not exclusively online, I don't know why I always say that – Nazis, white supremacists, fascists, et cetera, talk to each other in their safe spaces, their podcasts, their Youtube videos et cetera. 1
And, yeah, this week – as I said, it's episode 29, and this is part 2 of a two-parter, as it turned into, about the siegepill. This is Siege Pill 2: Fascistic Bogaloo. That's my joke, Daniel has no responsibility for it at all. 2
Hello, Daniel, how is everything? 3
Daniel:
I have no responsibility for anything whatsoever, and that's how I like it. 4
Jack:
Yeah. He unloads it all on me, so... I'm a scapegoat. I'm like Christ in that way. 5
Daniel:
[laughs] What people don't realize is that Jack is actually the super knowledgeable one in this arena. He writes the script and then we meticulously go through it, with – all the ad libs are all fake, everything.... it's truly Jack who's the mastermind behind this. 6
Jack:
Hm. It's... 7
Daniel:
The roles are reversed as you might think in this podcast. 8
Jack:
It's very much like the classic movie Without a Clue, in which Dr Watson is the great sleuth and he hires an idiot actor to play Sherlock Holmes. Very much like that. 9
So yeah, this is more about the siegepill, from last week. Content warnings, everybody, because it's going to get pretty nasty. I mean I know it always does, but it's going to get pretty nasty and dark, because we're talking about some really, really nasty people. I mean even by the standards of this podcast. These are nasty folk. 10
First off, we think Daniel wanted to make a little clarification about something that came up last week. 11
Daniel:
Yeah, just... nothing that I think – I mean I kinda went back and relistened to it and thought that people might have gotten a sort of a bad taste in the mouth a little bit about – I was kind of talking a little bit off the cuff about how the Federal Bureau of Investigation, other agencies and law enforcement people should be reaching out to people who follow this, people who are not paid to do this, who maybe are ahead of the curve from what those agencies are able to do, and I... one of the issues I run into is that I try not to name other people who might be doing this work, out of an intention to sort of keep the spotlight off of them, and that sort of thing. 12
It may have sounded like I was implying I am the world expert the FBI should come to. The last thing I want to do is to be a professional FBI analyst or anything at that level. I am not a law enforcement person, and I have... I don't have the temperament or the stomach or the desire to be that in my day-to-day life. 13
If someone from the federal government wants to reach out to me, I have least twenty people I can point you to you would be much more willing and much more capable of discussing these things in the terms that they would be used to than I would. I'm, again, just the nerdy middle-aged guy who listens thousands of hours of racist propaganda and tells people what they say. I was not trying to put myself above any of those people, many of whom I respect and value greatly. 14
I just wanted to clarify that because I think that might have come across a little bit negatively for some people. 15
Jack:
Okay, so let's – I mean obviously the FBI to talk to me first, shouldn't they. Let's crush on into the episode. I think we're starting with Cantwell News, aren't we? Have I got that right? 16
Daniel:
We're actually going to back in time a little bit. So one of things – again, just to highlight something here. A very kind friend of the show has – we do get people who submit transcripts from time to time, and someone did actually think that the episode 9, the Mike Enoch episode was good enough that they wanted to make sure there was a transcript available for it. It is up on their web site and there is going to be a link in the episode 9 show notes to that. And also by the time this episode drops there should be one for the most recent episode. 17
So if you did miss the last episode or if you just want to refresh, it is worth – and you don't want to relisten to the whole episode you can go back and read the transcript, because we are just going to jump right into – this really is kind of two things we're recording a week apart, but I'm going to assume you've already listened to the last one, because it had lot of the background stuff that I don't want to have to explain again. 18
Last time we did talk about sort of the process by which the white nationalist movement, the online white nationalist movement, the modern-day alt-right or whatever has, after Unite the Right, sort of run into a collapse. It ran into kind of a crisis of confidence and then ran into a sense of... nobody quite knew what was going on – the big optics debate. And that the collapse of the movementarian wing, the mainstreamer wing, leads to a greater interest in this more direct-action, siegepill, James Mason-like, direct-violent-action side of the movement. 19
There is no one who is more emblematic of this process, probably, than Chris Cantwell. We recorded that two-parter on Chris Cantwell – that was episode 6 and 7 – we recorded that at the end of February, middle to the end of February, and by happenstance right about that moment Cantwell himself was engaging in a – essentially what has become a sort of battle to the death, rhetorically and in online spaces anyway, although who knows where it's going to go in the end, with some even more terrible people than him. 20
I've been kind of sitting on that because didn't know quite how to cover it. It really wasn't something [we could] cover week by week, but I've been promising that we were going to eventually talk about that and so we're going to do it today. And I think that's a good place to start. 21
So Cantwell gets out of jail in December 2018, after he serves 107 days for illegal release of gas. He gets released onto – he takes a plea and he gets released from jail. At that point he was arguably riding high in the white nationalist movement. He had gone to jail for the program, he had kind of – he was kind of framing himself as a political prisoner. And had he been able to go back and just kind of do his thing, he would have been one of the more notable figures out there. But Cantwell is Cantwell, and Cantwell is a fucked-up human being who can never get along with anyone to save his life, and he has really, really bad instincts – as I think if you and listen to those two episodes you will know. 22
Jack:
Mhm. 23
Daniel:
Cantwell, in terms of his process of – what he considers was happening to him was that the system, the Jews, the establishment, was trying to quote-unquote shut him up. And he refused to let that happen. He also felt like that they were trying to blunt his message and not allow him to say what really he really wanted to say, and curtail his right to free speech, and his sort of – I'm going to be the edgelordiest of the edgelords sort of thing. 24
And so that leads to him literally recording podcasts from jail, even though they absolutely hurt his legal defense strategy. And some of the troubles with his probation come about because of things he said on those podcasts while he was literally in jail. And some of them come about because he couldn't keep his fucking mouth shut after he got out. 25
Jack:
[chuckles] 26
Daniel:
One of the things that he did was, he started kind of making friends and he was going to consolidate this little radio network and there was going to be the Radical Agendas, with an s, radio network, as opposed to Radical Agenda, which it his – which was then his only show, but... Anyway, go back and listen to these episodes, it's complicated. 27
Jack:
Aliens. Alien and Aliens. 28
Daniel:
Right. So he was going to have like Radical Agenda, which is his show, and then like a Radical Agendas network, and he basically invited some people who he thought were good content creators, who would be willing to go and kind of be under his banner. Not a bad idea, basically he was going to create something that was sort of a sideline to the TRS guys – the Right Stuff, the Daily Shoah guys. 29
He was kind of looking to do something in that vein, because he had a bit of a falling out with TRS while he was in jail, part because they thought he was toxic and wanted to distance themselves from him while he was doing absolutely batshit things on the radio from jail every week. 30
Anyway, I mentioned in the Cantwell episodes two other people, or two other groups he is kind of aligned with, and one of which is just kind of a libertarian buddy of his who's turned fascist, and the other is a group of punk musicians who are also fascists. 31
There was a – arguably two other groups, but really one important one that I did not mention in that episode, and that was the Bowl Cast, the Bowl Patrol. 32
Jack:
[audibly raises eyebrows] 33
Daniel:
Now Bowl Patrol, named after Dylann Roof, who was the kid who went and shot up – killed nine people in Charleston, South Carolina in 2014. He had a signature bowl-style haircut. And during the rise-up days of the far-right Internet – in the Daily Shoah forums, the TRS forums, and the Daily Stormer forums, and on the age of Discord chats, right-wing Discord chats, there were channels and there were boards and things devoted to the Bowl Patrol. 34
These are kind of edgy memelords that kind of put Bowl memes onto individuals who were kind of wanting to commit violence against Jews or black people or whatever, and... definitely edgier than most of the other stuff that's out there but sort of within the same basic purview of – just kind of what you would see on the Internet at that time. 35
But Cantwell, because he's a Radical Agenda guy and he wants to be the edgiest of the edgy, embraced these guys, because he considered them to be basically just memelords, just people kind of going out there and pushing the edgiest memes – let's push that Overton window as far as possible, that's how we're going to get the normies involved, by making it more or more acceptable to say more and more extreme things. 36
What he seemed not to realize is that they are not joking. And when he did realize that they ended up in a long-term battle that has essentially crushed Christopher Cantwell like a bug. And it's been a really pathetic and really glorious thing to see. 37
Jack:
[chuckles] So how is it – how have they accomplished this task of crushing possibly the most easily crushable person in the world? 38
Daniel:
[laughs] Well, it's taken some effort. We'll back up here. The Bowl Cast, just to give you a sense of who these guys are – these are people who, again, will kind of post these memes. These are people who are closely affiliated with Atomwaffen Division, which we talked about last time. These are the terrorist group responsible for at least five murders that we know of – mostly of each other, where they got into fights with each other, then one of them decided to go join ISIS. Instead of being a far-right white nationalist, he decided to go join ISIS and then people got killed over that. 39
There's a lot of kind of back and forth on those topics. I've put some links in the show notes to Nate Thayer's blog. [Nate Thayer,] who has done probably the best reporting on these guys, and it's definitely worth checking that out. You can also go read about Atomwaffen Division at the SPLC. I've included, I've kind of repeated some of the notes from last week and put them back in here as well. So, worth checking out. 40
The way that they managed to crush Cantwell was – because they started creating a show. So they started off as being this kind of Internet memelords kind of guys, and then they did the show called the Bowl Cast. Only eight episodes of the Bowl Cast were ever produced, and only seven of them are still available. One of them has been kind of lost in the Ether. We're not quite sure what's going on on that one. 41
Of those episodes, the very first episode was Chris Cantwell guesting on the Bowl Cast. We'll get into what's in some of the other episodes shortly, but they kind of approach him and they're just kind of making jokes about how needs to be killed and all that sort of thing, which is fairly standard Chris Cantwell fare in those days, but he definitely treats is as a joke. 42
The thing is, these guys are chaos agents, as you would expect from the siegepill idea that we discussed last week, and they sort of come out there and decide to – I think in retrospect the idea was to try to siegepill Chris Cantwell. Because Cantwell has always been – regardless of his edgy posting and all of his violent rhetoric, he is very much a pro-Republican, pro-government, pro-we just have to keep the Democrats out of office kind of guy. 43
Jack:
Mhm. 44
Daniel:
He has held on to that much longer than most of the other people in this white nationalist thing. And I think their plan was to kind of take this major figure and try to get him onto their side. The first thing that happened was, James Mason agreed to do an interview with Chris Cantwell. 45
In retrospect – I actually relistened to that interview over the weekend. Cantwell took it off of his web site but it is available. I [incomprehensible 14:06] include that, it is on the Internet Archive if you go search for it. This is a two-hour conversation with someone pretending to be James Mason. James Mason has done one podcast appearance that I know of in the time that I've been following this, and we'll get into that shortly, on another web site. 46
Ultimately, it's a very... pretty straightforward, not really a kind of mockery thing. It's just that, we're going to express the ideals that are in Siege and kind of do the old-man James Mason voice, and pretend to be this guy. They also started calling in and prank-calling Cantwell's show. 47
Cantwell is someone who was always priding himself on doing an open-phones radio show. Anyone can call in. He didn't have a call screen or anything of that – anything in that regard. When they started calling in, at first it was – they just kind of call in and do – they do this fake voice from this guy named Asmador. 48
Asmador is – he's an old man, an ex-Klan guy, he's real name is Robert Ray. I'm not doxing him, it's well known that's his name, but he calls himself Asmador. He's closely affiliated with the Daily Stormer. He is wanted on charges related to Unite the Right but has not been arrested, which leads people to think that he might have been doing some informing of his own, who knows. He is in the Charlottesville: Race and Terror documentary, the Vice documentary. He's the old man with the long beard sitting in the back of the van in that pivotal scene, if you remember that documentary. 49
Anyway, he had a very distinct voice. [stentorian:] He kind of sounds like this. The leader of the HBIC, of the Bowl Patrol, as he describes himself, a man named Vic Mackey, actually does an immaculate impersonation of Asmador. And [Mackey] started calling in, fake, as Asmador. At first just kind of once a show, once every other show, and as it started to annoy Cantwell more and more because he would just call in and do stupid things and he would do things that would cause Cantwell to break the terms of his probation, like naming certain people Cantwell is not allowed to name. And as this sort of relationship starts to go sour, they started to harass Cantwell more and more on his live show, to the point where he was literally getting dozens of calls, prank calls, from these guys, on every episode. And so it just became this – if you think the show unlistenable to begin with... 50
Jack:
[laughs] 51
Daniel:
...it just becomes an unrelenting string of Cantwell cursing people out and being unable to take calls, to the point that I'm pretty sure it gave him a serious anxiety disorder, [laughs] while he was actually trying to take calls. 52
Jack:
[laughs some more] 53
Daniel:
The real kind of moment became – after Cantwell had already kind of kicked these guys off his web site because he didn't want to be associated with what they were doing, he forgot to remove their ability to log into his web site, which he had them permission to do in order to post their episodes without him having to do it for them. 54
He didn't remove their login, and they put up a bunch of a real bullshit, on his website – claiming he was informing to a particular FBI agent and doing various things involving odd sex acts and other kind of sundry – basically they defaced his web site. And that was really the moment at which Cantwell goes fucking nuts. 55
Jack:
[laughs] 56
Daniel:
If you remember, there was a moment in which he attempted to reach out to Jared Holt of Right Wing Watch and give Holt information, kind of background information to write a story about the Bowl Patrol members and sort of the related people who we're going to get into shortly. He sends out that information – it's like, basically to the degree of like, I have information about my enemies and I think that we could do some real good for each other. Jared Holt just publishes the email. 57
Jack:
[laughs] 58
Daniel:
He's going like, yeah, if you want to give me information, that's fine. I'm not going to abide by your terms, you're a fucking nazi, okay, you know. 59
Jack:
[still laughing but who can blame him] 60
Daniel:
And that comes now, and it comes – that's the moment in which even Cantwell's staunchest defenders start to really leave him in droves until he has a fraction of his old audience. He has been kind of ultimately crushed by his own shitty behavior, but at the hands of this unrelenting harassment by these people even worse than he was. 61
Jack:
Yeah. 62
Daniel:
I don't feel bad for Cantwell, you know, you lie down with dogs and wake up and get fleas, what's the thing there... yeah no, it was – it's been kind of an amazing thing to listen to. 63
At this point, they are still calling into his show multiple times per episode and in fact just last week they managed to – I mentioned in a previous episode that he had gotten a call screener, a female call screener who was probably a nazi but sounded very pleasant as far as she went. Cantwell her sweetie and sweetheart on the air, so that wasn't creepy at all. 64
Jack:
[deadpan] No. 65
Daniel:
Apparently he pissed her off at some point, and she gave somebody, presumably the Bowl Patrol guys, the PIN number to get into his phone system. 66
Again, he didn't change the PIN number to get into his phone system when he fired this person and called her a fucking whore, and they doxed him and his new kind of secondary place in Silver Spring, Maryland, where he's been spending time – he's doing something in Silver Spring, probably doing some kind of political organizing, but... He normally lives in King, New Hampshire, but he's got kind of a secondary location in Silver Spring. 67
While they doxed that location live on the air by getting into his system – and they used like a robotic voice, so it's unclear exactly who did it, but I would be amazed if it's not members of the Bowl Patrol. 68
So, yeah. They've been fucking with him for a long time now, unrelenting, passionately. Cantwell is convinced these guys were actually federal agents because in his kind of vernacular, I am the most important person, the most powerful person in the movement, I can really talk, and clearly the only reason – the only people who have any reason to destroy me are the Jews. And so he thinks essentially that the Bowl Patrol guys are agents of the ADL out to destroy him specifically because he is the most important person in this narrative. 69
Jack:
Hm. Makes sense. 70
Daniel:
Yeah no, it makes – perfect internal logic there, right. I definitely understand. 71
Jack:
Well played, Chris. 72
Daniel:
I can talk about some of the figures in the Bowl Patrol, some of this – we will talk about one of them, the main guy, Vic Mackey. We'll talk about two to some degree here shortly. 73
At one point during this whole process, when he was trying to – when Cantwell was trying to keep the public opinion in the far-right movement on his side, as opposed to the siegepiller side, he went on a, sort of a little media blitz, describing his side of the situation and saying like, why I tried to dox people to Jared Holt. 74
And at one point he goes on this thing called the Killstream and doxes a guy who calls himself Mosin Nagant. I'm not going to name him on this show but the Killstream episode is still up there, and in fact it's even up there Chris' web side. So if you want to go listen to that, you can go listen to that whole thing. It's really hilarious to listen to the Killstream audience, Ethan Ralph's audience basically just bantz Cantwell and call him a shithead for two hours. It's really delightful because Cantwell really is a really delightfully awful figure. 75
Jack:
[laughs] 76
Daniel:
Ethan Ralph just – we're not going to do a full episode on this guy. He's one of those kind of – this is one of those kind of original shows in the Internet Bloodsports era. He's gotten banned from Youtube a couple of times. He's currently streaming to Bitchute primarily. I believe he does have a Youtube presence – it's one of those kind of two-to-three-hour hangout shows that kind of a regular retinue of callers and they kind of give money and it's kind of grift operation at this point. 77
It's very low information, low intensity, but – just kind of the baseline far-right standard. This is what young men on the Internet are just kind of listening to at this point. And so it's interesting to that degree, but it's pretty unlistenable if you have any desire to care about anything beyond just getting a sense of the movement. I certainly don't put that very high on my list of things to watch and listen to every week. 78
Cantwell did go on this show and he did dox this guy Mosin Nagant after Mosin Nagant called in to Cantwell's show... or called into the Killstream. We haven't really heard much from that guy since then. What he's doing behind the scenes we don't really know but he definitely – he was not on any future episodes of the Bowl Cast or as far as I can tell on any of the other shows. He may still be hanging out in the chats. I don't really follow the chats closely. But it does seem like it did kind of kill his forward momentum in the group at that point. 79
Jack:
Hm. So, a little bit of revenge there for Cantwell. 80
Daniel:
Yeah. Basically. I mean it's – Cantwell, and it's funny – even then he has like this weird sense of internal ethics where he wouldn't dox these guys from the shipping information. All of these guys have bought things from his store or donated money to him and therefore he has – they've bought like a Radical Agenda T-shirt or a sticker or whatever – so he has shipping information for them. He has dox information for these guys. He knows who they are. He knows who these guys are who are actually terrorists. If you then understand the level of anxiety and fear and paranoia that Chris Cantwell lives with, and the number of guns he keeps in his house, you understand he has legitimate fear they're going to come and shoot him in the head, as opposed to make fun of him on his radio show. And suddenly a lot of the emotional collapse of Chris Cantwell starts to make a lot more sense. Once you understand the general level of awfulness that they have made his life. 81
Jack:
Yeah. Yeah. That's a genuinely stressful situation I suppose. Although, you know, as with all of this, he's got nobody to blame but himself. 82
Daniel:
Yeah, I mean, if you would stop being a racist shithead and if he had not started – if he had not gotten in with these guys to begin with, and if he had realized they meant what they said, maybe he would have – maybe he wouldn't be in this situation. But – you know, who knows. 83
Jack:
So you've mentioned this Mackey guy. Vic Mackey. Tell me more about him and the Bowl Patrol generally. 84
Daniel:
Sure. The one thing is that we don't know a lot about him personally. Again, the journalist, the independent journalist Nate Thayer is attempting to hunt him down. There is a post I've linked which includes unconfirmed information about him. I'm not particularly interested in who he is personally, I'm interested in the effect he has on the people around him and on the movement. 85
But I think the best way to describe – to really kind of get at who he is, and what his effect on the world is, is to read a little segment. Because I mentioned he's threatened people and he is – and we've done a bit of talking about that work, like Cantwell has made statements that are plausibly in a kind of arena of threatening people and that sort of thing. And this is kind of on another level. 86
And so this will be a difficult thing to listen to. This is a transcript that I've done, I've massaged it a bit to sort of clean it up and to make it readable because it's on a terrible microphone and three people are kind of talking over each other – just kind of the structure of that podcast. This is something that Vic Mackey had to say about a prominent Antifascist, [an] online and on-the-streets Antifascist who I will not name on this show. This is what he said about this woman: 87
But as I was saying, normally I would advocate to the death against even touching one of those yentas... 88
By that he means Jewish women. 89
...or anything like that. But I'll tell you, if it's like locked in a room, it's go time. I'll tell you, in Roblox, that it would be getting the pistol whip, and that it would be getting the bull. You still had to be really hard. It would be really hard no to do it though. I mean normally because they repulse me, and I would never even want to copulate with one of these creatures. But it would be really hard not to – just seeing the fear in its eyes, like a shriveled-up battered yenta, just seeing like a disappearing [incomprehensible 27:01] wetting itself and [incomprehensible 27:03] abject terror. 90
That's a hint of the flavor, of the kinds of overt threats that he gives on this show. He threatens many, many people. He mentions my name, although he doesn't threaten me. He doesn't threaten to rape me to death, which I guess is a positive. 91
The Telegram message boards that I've seen, and the sort of the Discord message apps are, if anything, even more overt and even more extreme. But here he is basically saying it would be hard to bother to touch one of these Jewish activists but just to see the fear in its eyes I would rape it to death. And using in very – obviously that kind of deep dehumanizing language. 92
Yeah. That's the style of the Bowl Cast. 93
Jack:
Right. Yeah, that makes it pretty clear what sort of people we're dealing with, I would say. 94
Daniel:
I want to highlight a couple of things here. One is that he does the – I tell you in Roblox. Now if you don't know, Roblox is essentially – it's sort of another version of Minecraft, it's like a child's game. A lot of these far-right siegepill activists have been infiltrating the chat servers for these games and then literally trying to convert children into this far-right ideology, which is, um, awesome. 95
Jack:
[sarcastic] Yay. 96
Daniel:
But they always kind of do the thing – in Minecraft, this has been a meme for a while of – if you're going to say something fedposty – fedposty is like saying something that will get the federal government interested in you, or that someone who is a fed trying to get other people to do things would say. They call that fedposting. It's like overt acts – overt threats of violence or overt statements of, these people should just be murdered or we should go and kill these people, they append it with in Minecraft or in Roblox or in Call of Duty, et cetera et cetera, as a way of deflecting from their actual murderous intent. 97
Also I'll highlight that he's doing this on a podcast that does not have a large listenership. I mean it's hard to know [for] something that doesn't really have a – it's not on Youtube or anything, so it doesn't have a public counter. But these shows are not kind of major shows. These are not kind of big things with big audiences. You've got to imagine that the majority of the audience for these things is people like me, ultimately. So... 98
Jack:
[chuckles] 99
Daniel:
...the complexity then becomes – the goal, I think the goal, I think what Vic Mackey wants to do is he wants me to talk about it. He wants to threaten people so that people write about him and so that people talk about him and increase the tension in the system. And cause the government to kind of come after him, cause the federal government to come after him, cause people to put more and more pressure on the communities to create a backlash, to make people lash out more. And so either I don't talk about him, in which case he gets to go out and kind of spread his word in the kind of secret little underground places that he's going, or I do talk about him, in which case I'm ultimately feeding into the exact thing he wants. 100
But I really think like reading this that and listening to him, listen[ing] to him on other shows, his goal is to make people like me upset. And I'm kind of refusing to do that at this point. He is a frightening individual, he is someone I have no doubt that after this episode airs – that there will be – my face will be all over Telegram and they will put little targets over it and, you know, bullet holes in my forehead or whatever. They'll threaten to rape my dog, they'll threaten to perform satanic rituals, a lot of these guys have connections to the Order of the Nine Angles, which is a satanic organization, a far-right satanic organization. 101
There's a lot of joking about methamphetamin.. They talk about weapons all the time. In fact, even in that episode he's talking about like, we need a few more slide racks in here, and sort of playing with guns on microphone to indicate that, oh no we're actually serious about actually doing these things. 102
And virtually everyone who has talked about these guys or written about these guys or done anything even on social media has gotten these kinds of threats. And while I do take that completely seriously, I think the goal is to fuck with our heads. And so part of the reason [for] doing this episode is just to kind of lay it out there and say, this is the information we have, there are lots of people tracking this. Ultimately we can only sit in the shadow so long on these things. 103
And so that's kind of the reality. 104
It's worth noting that Vic Mackey has connections in kind of the larger world. In fact he has some fairly high-up connection. I'm including two political figures who we may do full episodes on in the future and one of which is Pat Little. Pat Little is a guy who was redpilled after reading The Culture of Critique, which I promise we are going to eventually do that episode, we just kind of got sidetracked by talking about terrorists for a while. 105
Jack:
[grunts] 106
Daniel:
But he did read this viciously anti-Semitic book by Kevin McDonald and essentially went into a tailspin for about six months, and learned to hate and did all the kind of quote-unquote research he could. He's a former – I believe he's a former marine. He did attend Unite the Right. I actually found on video not that long ago the moment where he met Mike Enoch, and he claims to have kind of worked security for Enoch at that time. There are photos of him kind of near there, I'm not sure if – how accurate that is but he kind of makes – he makes a lot of vague claims. He ran for Senate in California to kind of take over Dianne Feinstein's seat in 2018. 107
Jack:
[chuckles] 108
Daniel:
He claims the election was stolen from him, that there were irregularities but – he's one of those overtly – he said on one show, I will send Israel all the nuclear weapons it wants, all the nuclear weapons it wants, as long as they're exploded, as long as – we're going to bomb them, not provide for their military defense any longer. 109
Jack:
Hmm. 110
Daniel:
He's an overtly kill-all-the-Jews guy and he's strategy is to rile up the African American communities and show them that, no, it was the Jews who did slavery, not white people, and therefore you should take your reparations from the Jews, by force if necessary, et cetera, et cetera. 111
Vic Mackey and one of the other Bowl Patrol guys, a guy who goes by Illegal Aryan, who I don't believe there is any kind of – I don't have any real information on him, but he calls himself Illegal Aryan. 112
These two guys actually worked on Pat Little's campaign in California, and the [incomprehensible 33:43] doing this thing he calls jaywalking, which is essentially going out and Naming the Jew in public, on public streets in California. Again, we can kind of get more into Pat Little in a future episode. We might do a full episode on him and other figures like him. But they actually worked on his campaign, which means that presumably there are some public records about – like pay stubs somewhere. Just putting that out there. 113
But they also befriended a guy named Paul Nehlen. Paul Nehlen is another political figure. He is a guy who was actually connected to Steve Bannon. He was trying to run for the House of Representatives and take Paul Ryan's seat in the House. 114
So Paul Ryan was the Speaker of the House up until just a couple of years ago. He was in the House – in the first district of Wisconsin, and Paul Nehlen lives in that district. Paul Nehlen is kind of this entrepreneurial guy, he's run factories, he was this kind of – a kind of far-right Trumpish Republican. He got some money from Steve Bannon, he had actually sort of – he was kind of considered an up-and-comer. He did not win his race against Paul Ryan. 115
As bad as Paul Ryan is, that's probably a positive move. 116
Jack:
[chuckles] 117
Daniel:
But... if Chris Cantwell was on the first episode of the Bowl Cast, Paul Nehlen was on the second. It appears that, while Paul Nehlen was running, he did actually appear on the Fash the Nation podcast and he did some other media, in this far-right, overtly fascistic media, although he mostly stayed away from doing the – naming Jewish people and talking about genocide and all that sort of thing. He was kind of a pro-nationalist, edgier than Trump but still within that kind of frame. 118
And it looks like the Bowl guys siegepilled him. 119
They got him to read Siege and he has been seen wearing the Robert Bowers, or Saint Bowers as they call him – Robert Bowers is the man who killed those people at the Pittsburg synagogue in 2018... 120
Jack:
Yeap. 121
Daniel:
...he's been – all these guys, all these shooters, these mass shooters get named – they get called Saint Bowers and Saint Earnest and Saint Roof, so they all get canonized as saints within this community... 122
Jack:
Yeah. 123
Daniel:
...and you can see he wears a Bowers Did Nothing Wrong Saint Bowers T-shirt – while doing events, while he's trying to go about his day-to-day life. And Paul Nehlen has been incredibly loyal to the Bowl Patrol guys. In fact, both he and Pat Little appeared on the – another podcast, which we'll get to in a moment, and got into an argument about how best to start the race war. 124
And that – in that moment, Paul Nehlen said, you know, all we need is a million Robert Bowers. We get a million Robert Bowers to really pop this thing off and have this civil war and then we can take this thing back. And this is someone who was a relatively mainstream Republican three years ago. So, yeah, that's where we are on that siegepill phenomenon. 125
Paul Nehlen is a vicious, horrible human being who still sounds – if you get him off that topic he's got a very soft-spoken voice, sounds like a super nice guy. But he's absolutely radicalized to kill all the Jews by force – by Siege. So that's where that is. 126
So that gives you a sense of sort of the reach of this guy Mackey and sort of the world in which he lives. The podcasts that Nehlen and Pat Little appeared on, and which Vic Mackey showed up on, kind of late in the episode – although he was doing his Asmador impersonation, so as to disguise himself from anyone like me that might be listening him – of course I know who he was because I recognized his voice. And clearly he was talking exactly – he's like, oh, those Bowl Patrol guys, who knows what those guys are like, those guys are assholes, clearly. No, clearly we know who you are, Vic, it's fine. 127
Jack:
[laughs] 128
Daniel:
Yeah. He appeared on this show called Goy Talk Live. 129
Now Goy Talk Live was previously part of the Heel Turn network, which, again, go back and relisten to the last episode, Heel Turn was this network started by Joachim Hoch – Seth Wallace is his real name. Richard Spencer joined up, they got Augustus Invictus, who's now running for President... Vanguard Streaming was one of the other subchannels in that. 130
And these guys were kind of vaguely siegepilled far-right figures who, as things went kind of further and further, as 2018 turned into 2019, as the spate of mass shooting started, got further and further to the right. And I can only imagine that's at least partly through Mackey's influence, because we know that Mackey has appeared on a lot of those shows, has been hanging out with those guys, hanging out in the chats, in the Youtube comment sections and that sort of thing, and has been actively siegepilling a lot of these figures. 131
Now, we can go on some into some of the details on the Goy Talk guys in general, but they kind of sounded like, kind of vaguely – they wanted to joke about mass shooting but not really [encourage] it, until the Christchurch massacre. And since the Christchurch massacre they've gone pretty much all in on actually doing episodes that directly praise mass shooting and actively advocate for terror. 132
In fact, as that summer has gone one and we see more and more shooting, they have done episodes explicitly devoted to reading these manifestos and talking about them. In fact, just before they deleted all their content, they read the four-page El Paso shooter's manifesto, and talked about how he seemed a lot like a normie Republican who wasn't quite as far along as they were, but was definitely in the right frame of mind, and encouraged people to do something, even if it's going and planting a garden. 133
We will not actively encourage you to go shoot people because that's illegal, but we certainly won't disavow you after the fact. And if you're white and do these things then you get to be canonized as a saint. 134
And, yeah, this is one of the things that worries me most about these things, is that you have these groups who are doing these secretive transmissions, which are barely archived, if at all, and actively advocating, actively cheering on the mass shootings. It's not so much even advocating, it's the you will be remembered by us, you will be called a saint, you will be – we will laugh at your victims, we will encourage you to do this and we're going to egg you on. 135
And yet, these figures, while they encourage this, are not actually doing anything by themselves. These guys are not going out and shooting people, they're not – they are throwing spitballs with the hope that other people are going to throw bullets. And that's – and in that sense, they're kind of untouchable – by the feds, you know. You can't go after them unless they make either direct threats or unless they kind of organizing on their own. And that's the real danger of these figures. 136
Jack:
Yeah, they're providing incentives, without actually explicitly encouraging, so they're dancing on the line of legality, I suppose, and staying just on the right side of it. 137
Daniel:
Right. I mean, they're four main guys who are in Goy Talk. They do talk about themselves a fair amount, although they don't reveal direct identifying details on themselves. 138
They include a guy who calls himself Dino, who's a sort of a former rapper, who's worked on music videos. He's a former quote-unquote whigger, kind of back in the day, who apparently at least used to live in New York. He wears a mask on camera. You can look at the videos and he wears a mask that disguises his face. I think he's claimed that the reason that they quit doing the show for a while was because he just a baby born, I just saw it on his Twitter feed. So he just had another son, I believe, or a daughter, I can't remember if he said the gender of his child, but.. that's him. 139
There's a guy named Peezy, who pretends to be a cat, and there's a – Cat Gang is the thing he does and he does a... 140
Jack:
Sorry... 141
Daniel:
...a Jewish stereotype. 142
Jack:
Who pretends to be a cat. 143
Daniel:
He pretends to be a cat, yes. 144
Jack:
Why? 145
Daniel:
His avatar is a cat, and so he's like – because, I guess, in real life he really likes cats, although apparently he doesn't own a cat. But he's a guy who just sort of like – his thing is that he doesn't – he's not like doing a furry thing on air. It's just sort of like, oh well I am a cat and that's why I can't own a cat, but he just loves cats. It's sort of like his thing. A lot of his memes are kind of – it's sort of the way he's represented online, is like as a particular kind of small cat. And so... 146
Jack:
Riiight. 147
Daniel:
…you can see like hashtag catgang and that sort of thing, and it's all related to this figure named – who calls himself Peezy. And then he a couple of different characters, he does someone called – MAGA Peezy is a character he does. And that's a boomer-type, you know, an old man who has a live-in servant named Eduardo, who – it's implied they have a sexual relationship and all that sort of thing. It's basically talking about how all the boomers, all the old boomers who will – who are on the Trump train, but they're ultimately cucks who aren't going to actually go out and do anything, and commit mass murder, which is what we should be doing, because they're ultimately – they just want to defend their guns but they're not like overt racists enough. So he does that character. 148
He does a character called Finky, who is a Jewish stereotype and it's all about like schlepping foreskins and – it's all really vile, disgusting stuff. I'm trying to give you a sense of what listening to this show is like. 149
Jack:
Mhm. 150
Daniel:
These are like four-hour livestreams, you know. I'm just trying to give you a sense of what [incomprehensible 43:46] characters that they do and who they are. 151
Third guy calls himself Arnel... 152
Jack:
[deadpan] It sounds really funny. 153
Daniel:
Oh, it's hilarious. This is delightful content. Especially when – there is one episode where they did MAGA Peezy for an hour and a half I think and it was – I mean, you know. You just tune out after a while. It's just, you know. Even the other hosts are starting to get sick of listening to it. 154
Jack:
[laughs] 155
Daniel:
Third guy calls himself Arnel Schwarzenibba. 156
He either uses a voice changer or he does this kind of particular voice where he pretends to be half German and half black. The goal of the character is that he is the abandoned, half-black offspring of Arnold Schwarzenegger and his avatar is a blackface Arnold Schwarzenegger kind of cartoon. 157
Apparently in real life he is a bodybuilder and a gunsmith. He talks a lot about guns. They did an episode, Gun Talk with Arnel, with was three and a half hours of talking about what kind of guns you need in the race war and what kinds of guns you need to protect yourself after the collapse of civilization, all those delightful things. He talks a lot about survivalism. 158
He is a little bit older than the other guys I think. I think he's in his late thirties, early forties. He does have a couple of kids. He does a lot of guest appearances on some of these other shows, which we can kind of get into, shortly. 159
But the main figure, the one that I think is the quietest one but the one that's definitely the most hardcore is a guy who calls himself PaddockSperg. PaddockSperg is – he named himself after Steven Paddock, who killed fifty people in Las Vegas in 2017. The largest mass shooter in US history... at least in the modern era, we can avoid whether the Sand Creek massacre counts and all that sort of thing, but... you know, largest modern mass shooter. 160
Jack:
Yeah. 161
Daniel:
Calls himself PaddockSperg, so he is the sperg, the nerdy version of Paddock. He is also an artist. He talks a lot about the – great art, apparently he went to art school. He's a – someone who has tried to do it professionally. 162
He is about the vilest sort of racist you can imagine. He is – he routinely calls Jewish people the swine. He uses terms that sort of come out of – he doesn't quite go straight up to Christian Identity stuff, but certain – like calling Jews swine, calling them – some of the language kind of lends more towards that kind of Christian Identity. Obviously Jews are not – that [incomprehensible 46:22] Christian Identity but he does give me that kind of sense. 163
I don't think that he quite follows that faith but he's – he claims to have his own religious beliefs, but he is a pretty overtly virulent racist. He will go out there and actively advocate – I mean he describes how disgust – he apparently has to ride public transit every day and finds it utterly disgusting to have to sit on public transit surrounded by black people. 164
Jack:
Good. 165
Daniel:
He is the one who does audio books, reading George Lincoln Rockwell's books onto audio and putting that up on Youtube. He's put up – I think he was doing a version of Siege for a while. He has done a lot of that kind of stuff. And he is one who did the podcast Day of the Rope. Day of the Rope being the time after the race war when all the people like me are going to hang from trees. 166
Jack:
Hm. 167
Daniel:
On that show, episode 4, which aired right because they deleted all their archives, he was the one who hung out with a couple other guys and read the four-page manifesto and cheered it on... the El Paso shooter's manifesto. That's those guys. 168
Jack:
Yeah. What a charming bunch of individuals. Yeah, they sound really worth listening to. 169
Daniel:
Well, you know, they put out a couple of three- to four-hour episodes a week. Although they've been silent for a while. Again, the rumor is they're coming back, but that's... Goy Talk Live. 170
You can wonder, how do they get away with that, how do they manage to not get past the ToS. Again, as I described the last episode, the have a channel, they put it up live, if it gets halted, if Youtube shuts it down, they just continue their recording and then put it up on the archive page. Their archive page is always on Bitchute or on some other video hosting site. And so – and then they put it up on their personal web site, so that it's not actually on Youtube long enough for people to flag it. 171
Now, nowadays there are enough people who kind of know to watch for it, the live streams do get shut down and maybe there is someone at Youtube kind of tracking it as well, but that's their – that's the methodology. That's what they've learned. 172
For a while, they were able to kind of collect Super Chats and other kind of donations coming through those systems. They have gotten kicked off of all those systems. 173
There was a piece that I put in the show notes from Angry White Men which kind of describes this process. Also I put a link to Angry White Men talking about that Patrick Little - Paul Nehlen episode if you want a little more detail on that. But there is a piece of – there is a piece here, White Nationalists Have Been Quietly Collecting Donations Through a Livestreaming Site. And if you want to kind of read that, that will give you a little bit more detail on these guys. That is by Eyes on the Right over at Angry White Men. 174
And just as an aside, this was the piece that talked a little bit about the Honkler meme and how they've kind of embraced the Honk Honkler, the Clownworld meme which we discussed in a previous episode... 175
Jack:
M hm. 176
Daniel Tim Poole put this – when he did his episode of his show about how the clown meme isn't really racist even though racists use it, he read this article and then put up the screen of two of these guys, I think it was Arnel and Dino, up on his little screen with five hundred thousand viewers, for several – for about thirty, forty-five seconds. Oh these guys are clearly racist, but most of the people on this are not actually racist. 177
Yeah, great job, like showing your audience who the real racists are. As if you know who these guys are, Tim Pool. That's interesting. 178
Jack:
Yeah. Thanks, Tim. 179
Daniel:
He may have just gotten it from the original piece... Tim, you're doing a great job of pointing people directly to the racists they should go follow... despite claiming you're not a racist. Great job, guy. 180
Jack:
Yeah. 181
Daniel:
Just wanted to kind of throw that out there. 182
Jack:
Yeah, no, absolutely. Fuck Tim Pool... and anybody who takes him seriously as a journalist. 183
Daniel:
Indeed. He is on the list to do, again, we kind of got distracted by having to talk about terrorists for a while, but Tim Pool's definitely on our list to cover at some point... 184
Jack:
Good. 185
Daniel:
...in the not-too-distant future. 186
Believe it or not, Goy Talk is not the furthest right of these program. Believe it or not, all the things I just told you about this Goy Talk crew, they do guest hosts on other shows, including one called the Gas Station. And the Gas Station is not talking about petrol, it's talking – well, the lead guy who runs that calls himself Sarin, as in sarin gas, as in gassing people... 187
Jack:
Yeah... 188
Daniel:
...and killing them. There's a guy who calls himself Underwater Alex Jones, who is apparently from Windsor, Ontario. That's kind of all that anybody really has been able to dig up on him, or at least all I've been able to... I don't really care about his real identity, but... he will actually yell into the microphone about the need to kill all the weaklings, and all the people who are – all the cucks just need to fucking die. Because he just works himself up to a righteous anger. 189
He mostly does behind-the-scenes, kind of background, kind of production work on these live shows. But when he appears he's definitely a very angry man, on the radio at least. Yeah, that's delightful. 190
The Gas Station is one of those shows were you can easily find episodes – that one is actually still up. I believe I put a – yeah, I've got a link to its Bitchute channel. And that one just put out an episode, just a couple of days ago, I haven't had a chance to watch that one yet, so – they did not delete their archives. That's still up. 191
David Duke has been on both the Gas Station and Goy Talk Live. In fact, back in the days before they really got kind of this overtly siegepilled stuff, a lot of these guys, like – Alex McNabb has appeared on these shows, Eric Striker has appeared, Mike Enoch has appeared. 192
They seem to have kind of distanced themselves since. 193
You get more into this kind of overt talking about terrorism stuff, in which case there is this kind of nucleus, where they really only kind of talk to each other. But it is worth that there are kind of connections there. And Alex McNabb kind of was – messed with me on Twitter the other day, you know, when I was talking about Arnel, when Arnel [incomprehensible 52:26] and we kind of, sort of defending them and I was like, well, Alex, you want to defend the guy who does Goy Talk with PaddockSperg, is that really the place where you want to land? Your optics [incomprehensible 52:38] not quite good enough there. 194
But yeah, that's the – that's the world we live in, in which there is this kind of diffuse but concrete web of connections between all of these figures. 195
And talking about sort of the TRS connection, as diffuse as it might be, I think it is worth mentioning one other figure. Just because he continuously gets left out of these things and he always feels really bad when he does, because he thinks he should be more important than he really is. He's a deeply, deeply stupid human being... and he used to be on the TRS network. 196
He's a guy who calls himself Southern Dingo. 197
I've been following this guy for a while. He was my intro to a lot of these guys actually. Dingo is – he was a former Little Debbie driver who got kind of locally doxed, like somebody in his orbit found out he was a fucking racist, open National Socialist, Nazi shithead, and he got fired from his job. He reached out to Mike Enoch – this was in the days either right before or after Unite the Right, I can't remember exactly the timing, but this was kind of in the heyday of the Daily Shoah and the TRS network. 198
And they invited him to come and come on and be a, you know, one of the hosts on the network. Basically, you can come on and join and put your stuff up on our page and we'll get some donations for you, and all that sort of thing. Apparently Dingo is – his real name is Jeff. I don't know anything else about his personal life but his real name is Jeff. He openly calls himself Jeff on the show. His friends call him Jeff. He lives in Louisiana. He does talk a lot about himself for someone who wants to not lose his job for the third time. Probably not the best thing do to there, Dingo. 199
But he's the one who actually, you know – there are a lot of misogynists in this movement and I'm not saying Dingo isn't one of them, but he does give advice, like – if you want to make a girl cum, you got to eat her out in the shape of a swastika. He does give that level of attentive detail to the women in his life. Or at least claims to. That's delightful. 200
Jack:
[chuckles] 201
Daniel:
He is a vicious, horrifying racist, against black people in particular, and the image that I've given Jack to put on this podcast is a photo of his face, a screenshot – because, again, for a guy who is trying not to lose his job – he did a New Year's Eve stream in [incomprehensible 55:08] and in blackface, which looks to be just shoe polish or something. And I happened to be sitting online and caught that on New Year's Eve because I have nothing better to do with my life on New Year's Eve than watch a racist variety show – where he did a character named Ludarious and said things like, you know, what's the – lots of black-people-commit-a-lot-of-rape jokes and that sort of thing. That's the general level of humor that Dingo has. 202
He calls his podcast the Southern AF podcast because originally it was him and an Australian friends of his, although his Australian friend left him pretty early on and then – now he has kind of regular co-hosts who are South African and so they sit and talk about the South African farm murders on a regular basis, kind of [incomprehensible 55:59] in the details of that. And then they make fun of the African people, the black people in South Africa – how big their lips are. There is a lot of pulling up the photos and going like oh, this guy is disgusting, you can watch him eat corn cobs and that sort of thing. It's very puerile, juvenile, really stupid humor. 203
He is an overt National Socialist, an overt siegepiller, and he done interviews with ordinary boomer-type people trying to get local legislation to get illegal aliens out of their communities. He's tried to make inroads to them, he's a very polite Southern boy, and he is really, really fucking racist. 204
For a while his channel got wiped, not that long ago, he's kind of brought it back. He does have a recent episode I haven't had a chance to listen to. 205
But yeah, Dingo, you're really one that helped me to define this, so... you know, good for you, buddy. Thanks, I appreciate it. 206
Jack:
Yeah, well done. 207
Daniel:
I have interaction with him a bit on Twitter. But I put a link to his Twitter so you can go, you can go say hi to him and let him know that he got mentioned on this episode. I think he would be delighted to find out. 208
Jack:
Yeah, recognition at last. 209
Daniel:
One more thing I'll just mention before we wrap up here – I did mention that James Mason had done exactly one podcast appearance in my memory and that was – he appeared on a network called Radio Wehrwolf. 210
Now, as near as I can determine Radio Wehrwolf doesn't exit any longer. They had gotten their podcast hosting – their web site got dropped and then they were on a new host and I think they're over with the same host that does the gab.ai hosting – Epic I think is the name of that company. I thought they were with them for a while but then – now, they kind of pulled that web site down, so I'm not sure exactly what's going on there. 211
They – anyway I haven't been able to find kind of a more recent thing they were doing. They have a little bit of a Youtube presence, mostly on kind of an individual basis. 212
Radio Wehrwolf is kind of this collection of guys – there's this guy named Gadsden, and he did something called The Green Pilled Perspective, which is an eco-fascist thing. This is one of these, you know – the problem with Hitler is that he didn't kill enough Jews. We don't think the Holocaust happened and even if it had he should have gone all the way, [this] sort of thing. I believe he is also a teenager, pretty fucked-up thing. 213
This guy named John Beedy, who does a show that's about – John Beedy is one of these old-school Neonazi types in Canada. When I say old-school I mean he's a guy who's literally sixty years, seventy years old who was kind of active in the movement back in the day. His whole thing is calling all the liberals and leftists and communists, the Antifa, oh you little puke, you little pukes, I'm going to come after you little pukes. It's a pretty delightful, racist old [incomprehensible 58:53, man?] listening, if that's what you're into. 214
The big thing with Radio Wehrwolf is that these are kind of old-school Klan guys, old-school skinheads, who were kind of active in the metal scene back in the day. And these are leaderless resistance types. 215
And briefly, before their hosting got wiped for the second time, the Bowl Cast was hosted on Radio Wehrwolf, as was Dingo's shows... the Southern AF podcast, although I'm not sure how much he actually uploaded, but he was definitely part of that same group. 216
And I think that's one of the things that I want to – I know I've only painted the broadest picture of this at this point, and I've tried to give you just a hint of who these personalities are. The point is that there's a sort of wider movement here. There's sort of a wide group of people that come from slightly different walks of life, who are all kind of feeding into this general idea, this general kind of siegepill community. And that's coalescing into something that's slightly more organized. And I'm not quite sure where it's going to get. 217
I got messages from the last one that said – for the last episode, like, yeah, that was really bleak, that was a really bleak episode. And I suspect this one will be even more bleak, although I've tried to keep the worst of it from you. But these are genocidal racists. These are people that think that the other people that I've talked about on this show – Mike Enoch and Richard Spencer and all of those guys – are effectively useless and those guys are cucks. These are guys who start where [the Enochs and the Spencers] leave off. 218
And I think that that's the importance, that this thing is getting more and more hardcore and, depending on what we're going to see in the next few months, this could be kind of a new coalescence going into 2020. And who knows what the election's going to do to all this. 219
So, yeah, terrorism. 220
Jack:
Yeah... 221
Daniel:
Beautiful... 222
Jack:
Yeah, it's wonderful. 223
What a wonderful world. 224
Yeah, the election and everything is – I mean, whichever way it goes, basically, it's going to be like something that catalyzes the mutations currently breeding in the toxic swamp, isn't it. 225
Daniel:
I mean, the alt-right that – the movement of the alt-right was very much catalyzed in the year and a half leading up to the 2016 election... 226
Jack:
Yeah. 227
Daniel:
...and kind of culminated in election night 2016. And so, we're kind of seeing that again now, we're seeing something that's even more aggressive, even more hardcore, but less connected to a traditional political movement. 228
These guys aren't amassing on the streets. These aren't Proud Boys, these aren't those kind of figures. 229
We're seeing an active kind of pushing of mass shooting, an active pushing of this kind of direct-violence kind of ideology. It would not surprise me if we get bank robberies and if we get murders, frankly, of people doing this kind of work, and people – of Antifascists, of politicians... who knows what we're going to see. 230
This is definitely not going away. I think it's important to highlight exactly what the state of it is right now, and, yeah, that's the best I got. 231
Jack:
Yeah... this runs the risk of developing into – hopefully, worst-case scenario, a fully-fledged movement of domestic far-right terrorism. Even if it scattered and diffuse, because of the nature of how it's propagated, it would nevertheless be a movement. 232
And it's a terrifying prospect... as pathetic and inconsequential and infantile as these ridiculous idiot people are, they are horrifyingly dangerous. 233
Daniel:
They are, and even if not – that's one the things that I read that Vic Mackey threat on the air [for]. Is Vic Mackey going to actually come and rape that person and rape dogs and skin dogs alive and put them into – through satanic rituals and all that sort of thing, as he claims? That's – it's kind of Schrödinger's murderer, right? Like, it's not real until it is. 234
Jack:
Yeah 235
Daniel:
But certainly he's pushing that kind of rhetoric and kind of making inroads into – you hear rumors about different people – into like true crime fan communities. Young women who are kind of into true crime podcasts and kind of – he's trying to kind of go in there and talk to them and get them into romanticizing mass shooters, so maybe they will do something like that of their own. And kind of go and be serial killers. That's the kind of activity that he's suggesting to his followers, that sort of thing. 236
These kind of private chats that are away from even the places that I monitor ultimately – that's why this stuff is really dangerous. Because the point is to increase the tension in society, to increase the amount of violence, to increase more and more chaos, until people have had enough and somebody comes in with the steel boots and forces some quote-unquote order on this whole thing. And that's where we are. That's how fascist movements are built. And it's not over. That's where we are. 237
Jack:
Yeah. Even if it never goes beyond threats, in this or that individual case, it's still terroristic threats. And terroristic threats are called terroristic threats because the aim is the same as terrorism, it's to inspire terror and to inspire chaos and agitation and, as you say, to exacerbate these problems, to push them towards the desired political solution. 238
And these people make it abundantly – I mean apart from the fact that's it's just wrong in itself to terrify people with threats – but these people, their desired political solution, they're open about the fact that it involves mass murder, that it involves genocide of the people they hate. And that's what they're trying to push it towards. 239
And I think that's why people need to know about these people, as much as we – I mean, we talked about this – a little bit about this last time. There's kind of this Catch-22 where you know you need to talk about it so that people know about it, but at the same time by talking about it you're kind of giving them a profile and exposing them, and kind of – as you talked about in this episode, one of the things they're trying to do is to upset people like us. They – you said on – they're talking to people like you on one of the podcasts you're listening to. But at the same time... you know, people have to know this is happening. 240
Daniel:
Exactly. Let me just highlight this at the end. I'm not the only one following this. 241
Jack:
No. 242
Daniel:
There are many, many, many people doing this work and they're people writing about this and talking about this and researching this and digging into all these details and I'm in contact with many of them. And this is my – my goal is to try to make this more available and to make this more well-known, so that anyone with information, anybody who can kind of come forward, anybody who knows anything can help out. 243
We need all the information we can get because this stuff is very much – it's under the underground. This is – these are the wriggling worms beneath the wriggling worms underneath the log. There are only so many hours in the day for anybody to cover it, and so, yeah, that's the point. If you have information particularly about Vic Mackey, contact the journalist Nate Thayer, who I'm not in direct contact with, but I know he is looking for any information that anybody has about this guy, because he is overtly trying to figure out who Mackey is. He thinks he has an idea. He thinks he has some photographs of him. But he's is definitely looking for that, so definitely reach out to Nate Thayer, who has also done amazing work about Atomwaffen and is incredibly courageous at tracking these guys and going where they live. 244
And so that's what I'd recommend that people do. I f you have any kind of information, any kind of direct information about these guys, please contact Nate Thayer. You can contact me but ultimately I'm just going to feed it along to – up the food chain a bit. 245
So yeah, that's where we are. 246
Jack:
Yeah. And, yeah, you're right, there's a lot of people doing this work... not just you, although you do great work, and... All of these people that are doing this work, that are doing this research, that are getting this information out there – it's bloody awesome. Thank you for the work you do, and the bravery that it takes. To all of you, including you, Daniel. 247
So we'll wind down... 248
Daniel:
I'm just a guy who – I'm just a guy listening to podcasts, it's fine. [laughs] 249
Jack:
Yeah, but, you know, that's... 250
Daniel:
Ah yeah, we should wrap up. 251
Jack:
...that's a task, you know. You wade through this shit, I don't. 252
Yeah, we'll wrap up now, before I get embarrassingly sincere. Yeah, so that's episode 29, that was The Siege Pill 2: Fascistic Boogaloo – back in my territory now: stupid jokes. 253
You can find Daniel on Twitter, @danieleharper. You can find me on Twitter, @_jack_graham_. 254
If you want to get in touch with us, please do, to tell us how great we are. I always feel bad about puffing my Patreon after talking about this, because I feel like I'm profiting, or asking to profit from it, but... we have Patreons, and if you contribute something that is very helpful to us, to keep this going. But as I always say, it's helpful just to listen and spread the word. That's very much appreciated as well. 255
Daniel:
And just to let you know, I do have a Protonmail in my Twitter handle, my Twitter description. So if you do want to communicate to me securely then that's the way to do so. I do try to get back to people as fast as I can, but I'm always behind on that because I get a lot of really weird emails, so... 256
Jack:
[sarcastic] No, really? 257
Daniel:
Just so that you know that – I definitely recommend, if you do want to contact me that's – particularly with anything remotely sensitive – that's the way to do it. But I also have all the encrypted chat apps because of course I do. So, yes, if you do have information you need to share securely, you don't want to do it through Twitter DM, there are ways of going about that, just please email me and we can take care of that. 258
Jack:
Yeah, that would be very much appreciated if you have some information, or something to tell us. 259
Do you want to – we do have something lined up for next week, don't we? Do you want to sort of sketch that in, to tease the listeners? 260
Daniel:
Yeah, yeah, I've got a guest, a new guest, a first-time guest. I'm not sure how they want to be identified just yet, but we've been moving – kind of chatting. 261
And we're going to talk a lot about the Klan activity in the fifties and sixties and the FBI's response to that... which is really kind of – really feels like an on-point topic for this. So we're going to talk about this figure named JB Stoner and the – basically white nationalist, white supremacist terror of decades past. 262
So this will be kind of a learning experience for me, because this isn't a topic that I have kind of direct knowledge of. This person has done a ton of research into deep archives and I think will bring a really fresh perspective and something a little bit different than what we've been doing, but which is also kind of directly connected, so... 263
Yeah, that's what we're going to be doing next week. We do have that planned out. I'm looking forward to it personally. I'm really excited to get to have that conversation. So yeah, that's what we're doing. 264
Jack:
Okay, that will be next week. Thanks for listening, again, and... yeah, bye bye. 265
Daniel:
Bye. 266