Jack:
Okay, hi, welcome to I Don't Speak German, episode 28 now. 1
This is of course the podcast where I, Jack Graham, speak to my friend Daniel Harper about what he learned from three years now of listening to the fucking Nazis in 2019 talk about all their fucking shit, in their online safe spaces, their Youtube videos and podcasts and all the places where they gather to talk shit with each other – the Waffle SS as I say. 2
Hi Daniel, how's tricks? 3
Daniel:
Things are going great. Sorry we missed two weeks in a row there, that was not intentional, just some personal-life bullshit got in the way, but we're back, and we're going to be talking about terrorism today, so – yay for everybody. 4
Jack:
Yeah. It's a good job one of us remembers to do the podcast business of apologizing for missing weeks and stuff like that, because I – you can hear, listeners, I don't give a shit. So yeah, this is the... 5
Daniel:
[chuckles] 6
Jack:
[chuckles] …this is the 28th episode, and we're talking about – it's going to be of an odd one, potentially a bit of an odd one this week. It's going to be sort of story time and a bit of a loose conversation. Because we're talking about the siege pill, and I essentially don't have a fucking clue what that is. So Daniel is going to be explaining it to me. 7
Daniel:
Right. So this is going to be a story – I've been working for a while figuring out how to talk about this. During this podcast, for most of the episodes we've done, we've spent a lot of time talking about – in Zeskind's language, which I've read on a previous episode – the mainstreamers versus the vanguardists. The mainstreamers being groups within the white nationalism, within kind of Neo-Nazidom who believe in working in one sense or another through the workings of the existing political order. Versus the vanguardists, who believe that basically the system has to be destroyed and that something new [has to] rise from its ashes. 8
I've spent a lot of time talking about people like Mike Enoch, Richard Spencer, David Duke to a lesser degree. Most of these figures are pretty straightforwardly mainstream – mainstreamers within that – they believe in working within something like a kind of established political order, as opposed to creating a second civil war and having something rise out of the ashes that's more to their liking. Not always in quite that direct a means, but certainly in kind of a big picture. 9
Jack:
Comes to something when that's the mainstream. 10
Daniel:
Right. And one of the things I'm kind of getting to is that – when you're thinking about someone like Ben Shapiro – like I get people asking me like, hey, you should do an episode about Ben Shapiro. Lots of people know about Ben Shapiro. There has been tons of commentary about Ben Shapiro. Ben Shapiro is a thoroughly – he is a far-right wing nutjob but he is convincingly within the mainstream of American political thought. He has millions of viewers. He has fans. He is – it is very easy to find out all you want to know about Ben Shapiro by kind of following him around, listening to him and watching his Youtube videos, and watching all the copious amounts of criticism about him. 11
It's not that I don't think he's important because he's massive, and of course he's important. But he's not someone that I feel the need to put my own distinct spin on and it's not someone that I feel like wasting a whole lot of time on. So if you think about someone like, say, Ben Shapiro and then kind of further to his right is someone like Milo Yiannopoulos or like, say, Stefan Molyneux, who we covered but is kind of at the far-left wing of what I would consider someone that we'd follow... 12
Jack:
[chuckles] 13
Daniel:
...and these are kind of more edgy Youtube-only, off-the-beaten-path people – people that you wouldn't necessarily [incomprehensible 03:50] Milo has, but – not necessarily figures that you would think of as you-could-talk-to-your-grandfather-about-them kinds of figures. 14
And then you get to the even further – more where – what I normally talk about stuff, like the Richard Spencers of the world, the Mike Enochs, those kinds, Andrew Anglin et cetera, et cetera. People who – maybe you've heard the name, but you really haven't followed them because then you're getting into kind of more overt – overtly genocidal rhetoric, although it's often coded in other language. But these are kind of overt, we-actually-say-we're-racist kinds of racists. 15
Well, today we're going to be talking about the people who think that those people are fucking cucks. 16
Jack:
[chuckles] 17
Daniel:
And then we're going to talk about the people who think that those people are fucking cucks. 18
One of the worst things that I've described on this podcast is the unironic exterminationism clip from 2017 from the Daily Shoah. We're talking about people who start there on this episode. And so, needless to say, this is one that I've been avoiding just because of Jack's sensitivities and the sensitivities of the listeners. This is deeply, deeply disturbing content even at the distance that I'm going to give it to you. Because I'm not going to be reading long segments from anything or I'm not going to be doing anything at that level – but we're talking about people who openly advocate for terrorism, who cheer on mass shooters, that's what we're talking about today. 19
The other side of this is that these figures are incredibly, incredibly marginal. And while I do appreciate having the audience that we do, the audience of this podcast dwarfs the audience of most of these guys. These guys, well – I mean we'll kind of get into – but they get on the order of a few hundred listeners and we have ten, twenty times that at this point. We have multiple thousands of listeners at this point. Which means that if we don't do this right we run the risk of sort of like mainstreaming the message of that. 20
Jack:
Hm. 21
Daniel:
And so I've made efforts to kind of take care of that. I will not be providing as many links as I normally would, and, I don't know, it's kind of a complicated thing to figure just to cover responsibly. Again, that's what we're doing today. So again, if this sounds like it's too much for you, you should probably turn it off or take it in small doses. But at the same time, I think this is one of the more important episodes we're going to do on this podcast, like, full stop. 22
Jack:
Right. Okay. Well, yeah, stand warned. 23
Content warning and everything. 24
I'm kind of getting the content warning at the same time as the rest of you because I'm coming in pretty blind to this one. Because this is not – I mean this is very much why we do this, because this is stuff that Daniel knows about, that a lot of the rest of us, who might know a fair bit about Ben Shapiro and Stefan Molyneux and sort of people like that, we – we're likely to know a lot less about these sorts of entities that it sounds like Daniel is going to be talking about now. 25
Daniel:
Yeah, I mean, we're going to be talking about people who are closely affiliated with something called the Atomwaffen Division, which is a domestic terror group at this point, as of the last few weeks since the El Paso shooting, actually since the last time we recorded an episode. There have been about forty arrests of mass shooters or suspected mass shooters, people who've threatened mass shootings, by the FBI and – reading between the lines it looks like the FBI has been on some of these people for a while. 26
One of these guys, a guy named Conor Climo – Conor Climo was a Las Vegas – I think twenty-year old kid in Las Vegas who was part of his neighborhood watch and was posting about how much he wanted to kill gays and Jews on the Internet. And apparently the FBI [has] been on him since April and after the El Paso shooting they went and picked him up. 27
I imagine a lot of these guys who've been getting similar kinds of knocks on their doors – a lot of stuff has been deleted since we recorded an episode last, even from their archives. They've been clearing the Internet of themselves to a large degree, although – they say they're coming back, so we'll see how that goes. 28
But, yeah, this is a community that law enforcement is very directly kind of connected to. And while we're not going to be talking directly about Atomwaffen in this episode – frankly, I'm not an expert enough on Atomwaffen to do it by myself – we are going to be talking about sort of the culture around them. We're going to be talking about buddies of theirs. 29
And in order to do that we have to talk about the siegepill. Now – in order to talk about the siegepill we have to talk about Siege. And in order to talk about Siege we have to talk about a guy named James Mason. 30
James Mason was a kind of original Neo-Nazi back in the late sixties. He was born I think in something like 1950, 1952, somewhere in that in range. I don't have the details in front of me but he was born in the early fifties. When he was 14 years old he joined – he joined the American Nazi Party. This is George Lincoln Rockwell's American Nazi Party. This was kind of the original strain of Neo-Nazidom in the United States. 31
George Lincoln Rockwell – GLR as he is often called, or The Commander, because he called himself Commander Rockwell – there is an excellent episode of Behind the Bastards, a three-part epic about George Lincoln Rockwell, that you can go listen to. If you're a fan of this podcast I'm sure you're a fan of that one and I just recommend you go listen to that, because I don't feel the – I think Robert Evans covered it quite, quite adequately over there. 32
George Lincoln Rockwell is considered a kind of father figure, a hero figure to a lot of these guys. And certainly the people that we're going to be talking about kind of look to him as the model of how to do this shit. 33
James Mason, when he was 14 years old, joined the American Nazi Party, about a year before George Lincoln Rockwell was shot by one of his lieutenants – go, that lieutenant, big fan. [laughs] Which then, after Rockwell's death, the party [incomprehensible 09:56] transferred, had a couple of changes of names. It becomes the National Socialist White People's Party a couple years later. David Duke kind of passes through there in the early seventies. 34
When he was about 16 years old, about two years after joining the movement, while still in high school, James Mason wrote a letter to William Luther Pierce, describing how he really wanted to go and shoot a bunch of people in his high school, like his principal and some teachers he didn't like. William Luther Pierce, if you don't remember, is the author of the Turner Diaries and one of the original vanguardists. He's the kind of the, one of the two main figures in Zeskind's Blood and Politics, which I highly recommend you read. 35
William Luther Pierce wrote the Turner Diaries, the Turner Diaries is the model for the Timothy McVeigh bombing, the Oklahoma City bombing in 1995, and James Mason writes to this guy, and – Pierce writes back and says, well actually, no, that's probably not the best thing to do. You should probably join the movement instead, and you should work for the movement instead of die for the movement. 36
You know, good thing on you, William Luther Pierce, to prevent the mass shooting of this kid's teachers, but – yeah, Mason joins the movement, he continues within the movement, he actually moves in, he kind of sleeps on floors in the NSWPP headquarters for a while, and becomes increasingly disenchanted with their tactics. 37
In the early seventies, there was a whole lot of leftist political activity, a whole lot of opposition to the Vietnam War, kind of violent revolutionary actions. And Mason came to wonder why the Nazis weren't doing such things. Why wasn't there terrorism being committed in the name of killing all the brown people [incomprehensible 11:46] white people have the American continent back. 38
He becomes increasingly disenchanted with this kind of people going on marches and putting out leaflets and that sort of thing and as he becomes more and more disenchanted he becomes friend with this guy Joseph Tommasi. 39
Joseph Tommasi becomes the head of the NSWPP for a while and then founds something called the National Socialist Liberation Front, NSLF. He was the head of that for less than nine months before he was shot in an incident, which – the details remain murky. It may have been just kind of a random – somebody shooting a Nazi, or it may have been some theft – nobody is quite sure exactly what happened. 40
But essentially Mason takes that NSLF logo and the newsletter they put out, which was called Siege. And after a few years he renames – he kind of reforms the thing and creates his own imprint, with the same kind of naming convention, but under his own model. 41
Siege was published between 1980 and 1986. It was a newsletter and it advocated for not just – not just encouraging civil war but increasingly using [incomprehensible 13:05] kind of actions in order to achieve that. 42
James Mason corresponded with Charles Manson, and I promise I'm not going to say Marilyn Manson, I'm going to try really hard not to call him Marilyn Manson, but... 43
Jack:
[chuckles] 44
Daniel:
He was an advocate of Charles Manson's Helter Skelter tactics and saw Charles Manson as sort of the modern reincarnation of Adolf Hitler. This kind of activity, this kind of work pushed him further and further to the fringes of even the Neo-Nazi movement. He was such a marginal figure that he's not even mentioned in the pages of Blood and Politics actually – I checked that just this afternoon just to make sure he's not even mentioned there. 45
In 2002, the old newsletters of Siege were collected by a follower of Mason's and put into a book called Siege. It is currently in its third editions and I'm – there are rumors that there will be a fourth edition that will be produced some time later this year, if one of the people I'm talking about decides to do it. Who knows. 46
James Mason is still alive. He was interviewed by PBS Frontline earlier this year. He apparently works at K-Mart and he lives in Denver. And he is a terrible, terrible human being. 47
Why don't I take a break and let you ask me whatever questions you might have at this point? 48
Jack:
I was just going to say... I never knew that James Mason had this other career besides being in movies. 49
Daniel:
[laughs] Yeah, it is – you do have to google James Mason Nazi if you want to find this guy by the way. 50
Jack:
Yeah, there must be a Wikipedia disambiguation – I don't suppose the other James Mason's even on Wikipedia, is he. 51
What's – I mean, have you read any of this stuff? What's in Siege? What's it like? 52
Daniel:
Yes, I have, so – yeah, I have read Siege. So I did a kind of quick skim about a year and half ago and over the last couple weeks I've been reading it a little bit more in depth. I have not finished my in-depth reading of it. I'm about half way through it. 53
It's interesting that the book is largely a – you know, this is not something you give to normies. This is not something that you give to people coming into this for the first time. This is something you give to people, if you're in this world, to people who have become disenchanted with the kind of lack of progress that the movement gets. And this is why this is important. 54
Mason's criticisms of the Neo-Nazi movement ca. like 1981 sound very, very similar to the problems that the alt-right had post-Unite the Right. And if you kind of go back and remember those two episodes we did on Unite the Right, episodes 3 and 4, there was this thing, the optics debate. So, again, we [incomprehensible 16:01] tell the story here. 55
For a couple years, basically mid-2015 all the way up to, say, mid-2017 roughly, this thing called the alt-right maintained a remarkable level of mainstream support. They maintained a level of sort of keeping their ideas – pushing these kind of white nationalist ideas, [incomprehensible 16:22] nationalist ideas, into something like mainstream political coverage. And they were increasingly pushing the Overton window further and further in their direction. They were changing the kind of rules of the game. In gaining something that looks like real – at least kind of soft political power, the election of Donald Trump being the sort of highlight of this – the kind of the highest moment of this movement, which looks like it was going to move on. The summer of 2017 was filled with [incomprehensible 16:52] rallies, you know, all kinds of torch marches and those sorts of kinds, which culminated in the Unite the Right rally on August 12, 2017, which resulted in the murder of Heather Heyer by James Alex Fields, along with injuring I think 19 other people, some of them very severely. 56
Once this kind of moment of sheer shocking violence happened, once people kind of saw what this movement really was, just the sheer amount of news coverage – the movement scrambled. All the kind of major figures. Richard Spencer kind of goes a little bit more under ground, the Daily Shoah shifts its focus. Andrew Anglin starts plastering American flags all over his web site, sort of – replacing the swastikas with American flags as a way of making things seem a little bit kind of normie-friendly, quote unquote. 57
And every sort of advance that it looked like their very going to get very quickly – in terms of doing mass deportations, in terms of building a wall, in terms of ending birthright citizenship, all of those gains became increasingly – seemed increasingly out of reach. What they thought they were going to get very quickly, it turned out they weren't. 58
And this has them split in terms of the movement. Where like part of the movement was [incomprehensible 18:19] okay, we're just going to have to take the long haul, we're going to just keep doing what we've been doing. We've had a lot of success in 2015, in 2016, but ultimately we've got to kind of put our nose back to the grindstone and do the old thing. 59
But another group became more and more disaffected with that and really wanted to do something else and actually change things because they believed they were being literally genocided by the Jews. Which is nonsense of course, but they actually do believe it. And if you actually believe you under imminent threat and your people are under imminent threats from an all-powerful force – sitting and making shitty podcasts and kind of like going with the flow seems like a less-than-reasonable solution. Particularly if you're a young man hopped up on drugs and with a lot of guns. 60
Jack: Hm. 61
Daniel:
Increasingly, starting in mid-2017, late-2017 into 2018 and into early 2019, you kind of see an increasing tension within the movement. You see increasing – they are arguing about this stuff all the time, and while – it hits apex at the end of 2017. It's definitely kind of this tension, this thing that's kind of on everybody's mind. If you look at the forums and you listen to the callers into the shows you can kind of look at the topics they're discussing. There's a lot of – people don't really know what to do. A lot of people are frustrated with it. People leave the movement. People drop out. People do all sorts of things. 62
Until some time in early 2019, when – and actually we discussed this on this podcast – when Trump basically lost support of the entire movement. I became increasingly obvious that Trump was not going to give them what they really, really wanted, although the actions of the Trump administration and the increasing levels of mainstream acceptance of far-right figures within the burrows of his government, certainly are not – they are getting a lot of shit that they should not be getting. There was a hired member of the State Department who revealed to be a personal friend of Mike Enoch. [laughs] You know, just a few weeks ago. This is – there are certainly far-right figures pushing explicit ethno-nationalism within the government... 63
Jack:
Hm. 64
Daniel:
...but that's not enough for these guys. They don't see it that way. They see we're not getting a wall, we're not getting mass deportations, therefore we're losing, genocide is happening, and we've got to DO SOMETHING, in all capital letters, about this. 65
And the thing that increasingly they've decided to do is shoot random people. 66
Jack:
Hm. Yeah. So you said earlier that – oh, by the way, if you want to check out the episode that Daniel was talking about, where we talk about their disillusion with Donald Trump, that's episode 12, it's the Fash the Nation Podcast episode. Yeah, you said earlier about how these people we're talking about today, they have very small listenerships, very small numbers. Is this why, despite that, they're worth talking about, the fact that they, so to speak, punch above their weight, because of the effect that they have in stimulating actual violence. 67
Daniel:
Because of the effect they have in stimulating actual violence and because this seems to be where the growth of the movement is going. And as I'll kind of discuss in a minute, we're starting to see more and more figures who were previously more on the mainstreamer side being pushed increasingly in that direction. 68
Jack:
Right. 69
Daniel:
This is really extreme rhetoric, and despite the fact that they have small numbers these numbers of people are highly, highly motivated. And it's unclear exactly what to do about that. 70
So let's rewind again. Let me explain kind of more just sort of history of these movement as I've been following it. One of the things that I mentioned is that, beginning in early 2018, there was a phenomenon called Internet Bloodsports. 71
Now Internet Bloodsports was – kind of started with the Warski Live channel, and this was Andy Warski, whose basically kind of a right-wing libertarian, kind of racist but not really ethno-nationalist. He's just sort of like the average right-wing chud on Youtube. 72
JF Gariépy, who I promised would get his own episode one of these days, it's just he's less important than other things that we need to talk about – who is a French-Canadian man who has an affinity for being in relationships with women of... borderline mental capability? I'm not sure there is a correct way to say that? 73
Jack:
What? Sorry? 74
Daniel:
He is in a relationship with a – someone who very – seems very much to be mentally disabled. And this is at least the second relationship that we know of in which he's done that. There were court documents that – where the family members of one of these women that he was in a relationship with were trying to get him to cease and desist the relationship. There is a really complicated conversation about personal autonomy of people and their ability to consent, and I don't know about enough the intricacies of that to really to discuss it. But some of the allegations veer – they veer to rape. This is effectively a non-consensual relationship. This girl was simply not capable of consenting to the kind of relationship that he had with her. 75
Jack:
Ew. 76
Daniel:
This is something of course that JF Gariépy denies strenuously. He does not deny being in a relationship with her, he just denies that it's non-consensual. There's, yeah – sorry, this is completely off the beaten topic here, but – yeah, this sort of thing you just sort of run across as you have to talk about this stuff – yeah, he likes to fuck mentally disabled women. Yeah. 77
Jack:
Yeah. Sorry about that, listeners. That was me derailing Daniel just from sheer what-the-fuck, um. Yeah, sorry. Go on. 78
Daniel:
It's funny. Sorry. I'm trying to keep it light here, but there is a sense in which some of this stuff you just run across often enough, and that – like, yeah, he likes to fuck mentally disabled women, that's – it's just par for the course, right? That barely even tweaks the node, the meter on the awful things you run across in this episode, so... 79
Jack:
[chuckles] Yeah. 80
Daniel:
[laughs] Anyway, we will do an episode on him, soon enough, I promise. 81
Jack:
[sarcastic] Oh good. 82
Daniel:
He is a really fucked-up figure, and believe me, that's probably the worst thing personally about him, but in terms of the things he believes, he is really batshit. Anyway, he's also a PhD, a neuroscientist, so, anyway... 83
Jack:
Hm. 84
Daniel:
Moving away from JF Gariépy. Anyway. 85
Warski Live was a channel that started doing these Internet Bloodsports things. Basically these were debates. If you remember I discussed in a couple of episodes where Mike Enoch went onto Youtube and did these debates with other figures about, like, the nature of the Holocaust, about what the alt-right believes, and the value of ethno-nationalism. Sargon of Akkad did a debate on a – I think it was on the Killstream, which we'll come back [to] shortly. This is a guy named Ethan Ralph who was doing a kind of a similar thing. 86
You had a bunch of these channels and there were a bunch of people doing this stuff in early 2018. The reason this is important in this topic is that it taught these guys how to make money. Because what they could do is use the Super Chat feature on Youtube and collect money from people who would just kind of donate. You donate a dollar, you donate two dollars, whatever the limit is. And the host will kind of read your chat on the air and you kind of get it seen and so it's a way of interacting with the host, a way of kind of donating money. And it ends up being a way that a lot of these guys used to sort of launder money through their organizations, a way to sort of make money off of it. 87
And some of these things – at the height of Internet Bloodsports, Warski Live was getting the highest number – the highest numbers of any live stream, at the time it was streaming, anywhere. On all of Youtube. And a lot of these chats ended up kind of being that sort of draw, it ends up getting thousands of live listeners and tens or even hundreds of thousands of people watching it later on, and giving hundreds, if not thousands, of dollars to this. 88
As a mechanic, this kind of Super Chat thing becomes stuff that's very common on the right-wing Youtube. It's like if you and I were going to do this show and we were going to do it live to Youtube and then people could write in and say, like, hey, say "Christopher Cantwell, suck my balls" and I'll give you 14.88 for it or something like that. And that's the style of these – they do these multi-hour, three, four hour live streams. They're very difficult to sort of track them all it's just a huge amount of material and a whole lot of it is completely kind of low-information, low-value – it's just not really worth much in terms of trying to understand things. It's really just kind of – it's more of a hangout, it's more just kind of a long chat 89
Jack:
Got you. 90
Daniel:
A lot of these figures still do this. Now, increasingly they've moved away from the Super Chat model, they've moved into their – basically, at a certain point, a lot of these guys got demonetized from the Super Chat system, they're not allowed to use that anymore. There are these kind of secondary, tertiary ones, and then – as they get kicked off of various platforms, there are more and more platforms that they can do. But this, even today, is a major way that a lot of these figures will kind of make their operating costs. 91
A lot of these guys will make, you know – these guys will make – they will do two or three, you know, three, four hour live streams a week, each time making a few hundred dollars. And that adds up, that's a full-time gig at a certain point, right? 92
Jack:
Yeah. 93
Daniel:
Even giving it a thirty cents to the dollar to – whatever your provider is. So this is real money going their way. 94
Interestingly, this doesn't work on the left. Left-wingers who try similar projects – you get like ten percent at most of the money, even with tens or hundreds of thousands of views. It's just not a – it's just not viable on the left. And that says something... 95
Jack: [laughs] 96
Daniel:
...I'm not quite sure what it says, except that right-wing douchebags have a lot more cash to burn. [laughs] Well, donated in these ways. 97
Jack:
Yeah, they have more money to burn and are, um, readier to burn it. 98
Daniel:
Eric Striker, who's a figure that we've talked about and we haven't done a full episode on – but [there] was the CV/Striker debate that we discussed in a previous episode. Eric Striker's show does this. I mean a whole lot of these guys do it, at least the ones that use Youtube as kind of their primary revenue stream. 99
One of the things they ran into fairly quickly was that the kind of exist – the shows would go beyond what the Youtube community guidelines would allow. Meaning that they're talking about the Jews and then they're about gassing people, and they're talking all the despicable things you can image they're imagine they're talking about. And even when [that] might be missed while the show was live, because they're just weren't enough people reporting it live to get it pulled, over time – you know, the archives would sit there, and you could – people would see their channels deleted. This happened to the Killstream a couple of times, that's Ethan Ralph's Killstream. And it happened to a couple of the channels that just sort of had this – just sort of one day had their archives wiped. 100
And so they hit on kind of ingenious tactic of – they live stream immediately to Youtube to reach the main audience, and then put the archive link up on another web site. Mostly they use Bitchute for this purpose, because Bitchute has much, much looser content guidelines than Youtube. And so you're not actually keeping the offensive material on Youtube, you're putting it somewhere else, and so as long as you don't get kind of caught in the act while you're doing a live stream, your channel gets to stay there and you can keep your subscriber base. And then when you get deleted, you just create another channel. You call it, you know, Racist Podcast 2, or put like some different letters on it, you move the words around, and then you can kind of going out there. 101
Eventually, by early 2019, there is sort of a devoted audience of people who seem to literally just kind of sit and watch these live streams. 102
There was – we talked about the Heel Turn Network in episode 1 of this podcast. This was Richard Spencer's kind of co-venture. Richard Spencer kind of joined this Heel Turn channel, which, at the time I said this – is kind of weird marginal thing, I'm not quite sure what's going on. But they had multiple people all giving content to this one channel. And they had sort of a – you could tune in to the Heel Turn Network basically at any time of day or night and be watching some kind of racialist or racist Youtube show. And then the archives – a lot of them, they get deleted, some of them kind of stuck around, some of them got moved to Bitchute. A whole lot of the stuff I did not manage to get in my archives because I didn't have easy ability to archive Youtube stuff at that time. If anybody has that early Heel Turn stuff please let me know because I'm definitely interested in it. 103
One of the channels that was – one of the figures who was kind of key to starting Heel Turn is this guy who goes by Joachim Hoch. His real name is Seth Wallace. I'm not doxing him, [it] is well known [that] this is his name. There are a couple of pieces that I've kind of put up talking about Seth Wallace. We'll call him Joachim for this because it's just kind of the name I know him under. 104
He was the guy who started Heel Turn and kind of approached a bunch of guys and put a lot of this stuff together. Joachim, in the early days, seems to have been pretty much a standard mainstreamer. Increasingly, as the kind of network goes on, he gets more and more siegepilled, quote unquote. And eventually the Heel Turn Network kind of breaks apart, and there's some – it seems to be there is some complicated back dynamics about that – that Spencer and Joachim just kind of didn't get along. 105
There may be some kind of optics questions because as some of these guys get further and further in the open-support-for-mass-shooters direction, some of the more – the Richard Spencers of that channel seem to be less interested in being involved with that. And whether that's out of a legitimate desire to not be associated with them because they actually don't agree, or whether this is kind of keeping a – keeping their distance, keep arm's length out of a desire to protect their brand or whatever – it's kind of hard to know. I think in some cases it's half one and half the other. But I'm perfectly willing to acknowledge that Richard Spencer probably does not want to encourage literal acts of terrorism, in the way that a lot of these other figures definitely started to do. 106
But it does seem like, as things kind of went on, some of these figures got further and further in this kind of overtly siegepilled direction. And eventually these Heel Turn Network breaks up, they delete all their archives, and they split into four or five channels. One of which is this guy Augustus Invictus, who – [laughs] yes, that's his pseudonym. I don't remember his real name. He's a kind of former libertarian, he's a lawyer, and he just announced his run for president. 107
Jack:
[chuckles] Oh right. 108
Daniel:
He's running for president in 2020 on an explicit Colonize Central America ticket. So that tells you who Augustus Invictus is. 109
He's one of the guys who was kind of big in the movement even going back to 2017. He was at Unite the Right and if you google revolutionary conservative you can kind of find a lot of this stuff out there. He has a kind of – he has – I don't think he's an overt siegepiller, but he's definitely a lot closer, more closely related to them than some of the other guys. His announcement of his presidential run went up on a couple of the channels where the more overt siegepillers hang out, and so – some of these guys really are playing footsie with this, who would in other senses seem to be much more kind of closely connected to the mainstreamers. 110
Jack:
So when you talk about people being siegepillers or being siegepilled, I mean, firstly, what does that actually – what makes somebody a siegepiller, and how do they get there? I mean, is it actually via reading the back catalog of Siege, or is that just a term that's gotten applied to people like... 111
Daniel:
I mean, it's partly a term – most of them actually have read Siege, at least the book, the e-book. I will put links to it, if you want to read it. It's actually an interesting read, kind of strangely. If you – reading Siege, for me, is [as] much a project of understanding that so much of the rhetoric that these guys use is a vulgarization and a kind of fun-house mirror version of stuff that was actually happening on the left, stuff that's actually sort of valid. 112
Jack:
Hm. 113
Daniel:
That is, if you are marginalized and oppressed population, then using revolutionary violence may be the way out of the troubles. That said, it doesn't work when you're a Neo-Nazi trying to genocide people. It's a slightly different thing. 114
Mason's Siege advocates less kind of creating a movement, although he does kind of talk about what it takes to make a movement, and what kind of factors you're looking for. I mean, he's not anti-movement as much as his suggestion is that people drop out of the system instead of – you're not supposed to sort of pay your taxes, you're not supposed to be a part of this kind of multiculti hellscape that modern world in 1981 was, and even more so in 2019. 115
You're not supposed to be a part of that, you're supposed to drop out, you're supposed to plan violent actions of resistance. In the book, he offers examples of like – bombing the Boulder Dam for instance, engendering increasing tension between the race to spark off a race war, and kind of destroying the infrastructure that makes the modern world this sort of – this System. He uses The System in capital letters quite often. To make The System not work anymore, and... 116
Jack:
Sounds like the Unabomber. 117
Daniel:
...to bring down society. 118
It's very much the – I mean, they're speaking in the same place, and a lot of these guys who are advocates of Siege are also people who – some of these guys are also advocates for Unabomber-style eco-terrorism, although that tends to be in a slightly different bailiwick – kind of related but not quite the same thing. But you're thinking in the right realm, definitely. 119
Mason's advocacy – Mason isn't saying we need to go back to nature, he says at one point in the book that the great blackout might be something that we just have to have in order to maintain this – in general the idea is that you go out and you commit acts of violence against The System that are going to spark off a race war. You pick your targets, you kill whoever you need to kill, and once you can basically make the – quote, unquote the black riots, you can create this system by which white people are going to kind of get back their part of the pie and are going to just kind of go off kill whoever they need to to create the white ethnostate. 120
At one point in the book he says – he doesn't believe in the Holocaust, but he says there will be no need for gas chambers in the American version. This is what separates us from Germany. There will be no need because by the time we're able to form the kind of society we need, none of the people that would go into gas chambers will be left alive. 121
He's advocating literal mass murder by individuals, by thousands or millions of [incomprehensible 39:03] white nationalists. And the way you do that is you make things worse and worse and worse for freedom-loving white people who otherwise are kind of a part of the system. You make life worse and worse for them until they will pick up their guns and just go on – start going on a killing spree. And so the model ends up being, the streets will run with blood, everything is going to be shut down for six months to a year, until we can kind of have our thing, and we can kind of build a better thing out of the ashes. 122
Now... there are lots of problems with this. And – for my nazi listeners: I feel like it's the time to kind of reiterate: I don't care how much canned food you happen to have, I don't care how many bullets you have, I don't care how isolated you are, you are not going to outsurvive the people who grow the vast majority of food in this country. And I'm guaran... – and I'm telling you, those are not white people, okay? [laughs] 123
Jack:
Yeah. 124
Daniel:
You know, if you manage to spark off this civil war, and I take that as unlikely, I can promise you that the Mexican migrants you despise are going to outsurvive you by a thousand years. It doesn't matter. I don't care. Anyway. 125
Jack:
[laughs] 126
Daniel:
The other part of that is a real Underpants Gnomes problem tier, where – we spark off civil war, question mark.... 127
Jack:
Yeah. 128
Daniel:
...white nationalist ethnostate is at the other end, you know. One of the things that's very – one of the things that leftist thought does is talking about organizing and what kinds of systems it makes sense – you know, you don't spark off the revolution and then just go, and then at the end we win. [laughs] 129
Jack:
Yeah. 130
Daniel:
And this is completely missing from any kind of analysis that any of these guys do. They just assume that once – once the kind of power structure at play is gone, we're just going to rise from the ashes, phoenix-like. And this also kind of feeds back into that might-is-right kind of idea, the idea that these – that powerful men, strong men are going to come in and be the ultimate kind of heroes – we're strong and so we're going to just survive, and if we weren't strong enough then we wouldn't survive. But ultimately, white people are just naturally superior and so at the end of the day, however many of us are left, we're going to be the ones to pick up the pieces and then we get to build our happier society out of – at the end of it, so... 131
Jack:
[mildly skeptical] Yaaaaah... 132
Daniel:
And since this sort of epistemology, and this sort of ontology of white people as inherently superior kind of leads them to not think they're going to need that... 133
Jack:
[laughs] I'm sorry guys... 134
Daniel:
...let's just keep thinking that... 135
Jack:
...evolution doesn't even work like that. It's not about who's superior. It's about who's best fitted for their niche, their environment... 136
Daniel:
[laughs] Right. 137
Jack:
Superior, it – there's no such things as superior or inferior species. But – let's just say that you can quantify a species as superior because it's bigger or stronger or more intelligent or something. They go extinct if the environment they happen to be in is better suited to smaller, weaker, less intelligent creatures. So that literally isn't how anything works, guys. 138
Daniel:
[chuckles] Exactly – in the end, like all of these guys do have fantasies, essentially, of like – they will go and just walk into the ghettos and just mow down every black person, and just – this is where the idea of the day of the rope happens. 139
On the day of the rope, we're going to take all the race traitors – they're going to take people like me, race traitors, communists, et cetera, et cetera, all the judges and all the lawyers and everybody and they're all going to get hung from trees. And at the end of the day it's going to be white people paradise, after all the bad people are gone. All the gay people, all the Jews, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera. 140
When I say that Fascism is a death cult, this is the kind of thing I'm referring to. This is literally what they believe, this is what they want to happen, this is what they see as happening, ultimately. 141
Jack:
Yeah, this is politics and ideology sort of – retro-worked out from fantasies, isn't it. You work out what your politics are and what your tactics will be based on the fantasy to want to have about which particular people you want to enjoy murdering. 142
Daniel:
Yeah, it's almost certainly that, and much of the content of Siege is essentially a sort of working out of the – fiction of the Turner Diaries. It's taking that and then putting it into sort of operational practice. 143
A lot of people think that Siege is – I mean, if you haven't read Siege you might think it's filled with things like the Anarchist's Cookbook for instance, you know, a lot of recipes for bombs. That's not really the content. It's really – the bulk of the book is not even really about racism. 144
It doesn't talk about race and IQ. It doesn't really talk about the inferiority of black people. I mean it clearly believes that, but – again, this is a book, this is sort of a 201-level book. This is something you give – I heard it said on a stream not that long ago, it's something like – it's less something you use to redpill normies versus this is something you use to radicalize redpillers. 145
And since this stuff is getting more and more mainstream, the figures – again, the mainstream figures, the mainstreamer figures that we've been talking about, people like Spencer and Enoch and such – are increasingly seen as deradicalizers within the movement... 146
Jack:
[voiceless labiodental fricative of incredulity] 147
Daniel:
...or within the community. Like... Mike Enoch laughs about the rest of the – people calling them deradicalizers... because that's the state that this stuff has gotten to in mid-to-late 2019. That's who we are right now in terms of this subculture. It's moving further and further to the right. It's becomes more and more radicalized. 148
Jack:
So the people that we know, people like Enoch and Spencer, that most people know about, they're actually considered – [sarcastic] well, they're probably FBI, to be honest, aren't they, in the view of most of these people... [laughs] 149
Daniel:
Oh, god, that – well, I mean, they're cucks. They're ultimately – they're part of the movement, they're part of the system... if you are not advocating violent revolution through terrorism at this point, you are suspect. You are part of The System, you are not going to – lead to an actual solution to this problem. 150
And... someone like the El Paso shooter – how do you get the El Paso shooter to not – how do you deradicalize him? Ultimately, the answer – if Donald Trump had been putting machine gunners as the US-Mexico border, if there were kind of mass deportations happening, and think he would have been perfectly fine with that. I think he would not have the felt the need to go and do that ultimately. 151
And I think that's the kind of scary part – is that – I was going to kind of wrap up with this, but there is a tension between these groups, between this kind of two separate ideologies. It's not enough to say there are mainstreamers and vanguardists – that when the mainstreamers kind of gain momentum, when they have more energy and more kind of authority to actually effect change, it tends to deradicalize the vanguardists. People are more and more willing to just sort of let things go and see what's going to happen. But – you get more and more state violence used against marginalized people. 152
When they stumble and when they start to fail, more and more power goes towards the vanguardists, and the vanguardists get increasingly violent and they start going out and kind of committing random acts of terrorism. And that's what we've been seeing this summer. Essentially, because Trump is failing in the eyes of the alt-right, in terms of white nationalists, the dissident right, whatever you want to call this, people are taking matters into their own hands. 153
And ultimately, this becomes a big question about even – the question of deplatforming for instance. [incomprehensible 46:49] people to kind of sit on the Internet and bullshit keeps guns out of their hands and kind of reacts as a release valve, but they gain more people to their cause. And again, this becomes a real question, there's a real – there is not a clear answer to this because ultimately we want to fight both of these tendencies. And ultimately we need a kind of a multi-thronged approach. And that's – that's difficult, that's a complicated thing. I don't have a clear answer for that. I'm definitely interested in people's thoughts on that question. 154
Jack:
I often think, depending on the external circumstances, tensions like this within movements can be both drawbacks and pluses. Obviously in situations of demoralization and setback for a movement – and it does – there is a sort of a mirror effect here with the left, because a lot of this is mirrored on the left. I'm not going in for a kind of crude horseshoe theory, as I always say politics has content as well as form. But there are – there is form as well as content, and there definitely are resemblances to how left-wing politics works. 155
And yeah, it's true that if you get something – if you got Corbyn in government in this country and he started instituting even some of the policies that he advocates, you'd see a kind of deceleration I think on the left, where people sort of step down and watch that space, you know, and say, let's see what happens here. And then, if that government started being – started backsliding or started being defeated, you'd see a consequent rise in radicalism as people reacted to that with dissatisfaction. So yeah, it's definitely – it definitely works in this – and we've seen that many times in British history alone, that exact syndrome. 156
But yeah, in situations of, as I say, setback and demoralization, you get this – famously, the left is prone to splits and fracture and squabbling and so on, you know, it's a cliché. I think it's pretty clear just from what you've said in this episode the right is equally prone to that sort of thing, and that's – that's kind of one mode on internal tension showing itself. You know, in defeat or setback, it turns into this fracturing. 157
But also I think in some situations this internal tension between different aspects of the movement can actually help it grow, and I think that's definitely what we were seeing a few years ago as this was building and building and building. Do you see what's happening now as – I mean this might be an impossible question to answer, but do you see it as leading towards this thing growing or flying apart? 158
Daniel:
I don't see this as slowing down any time soon. The one thing that's having an effect – and I think what I want to do just as we [incomprehensible 49:49] talking about this, like – this is all a long preamble but there is so many – I wanted to get into a lot of the major figures in this. So I think we're going to split this into two and I'll talk about sort of the individual personalities and we'll talk about the Cantwell story, which is hilarious and fascinating. But we definitely need I think a whole episode to get into that. So we'll consider this as preamble. 159
Jack:
Okay. 160
Daniel:
But to answer the question – sorry, I just kind of thought of that now – this is very much like me figuring out how to tell this story. This has been great actually. Part of the thing that I think we're seeing is that these movements are still growing. The question is what the long arm of the law is going to have with these guys, in the sense that people are being arrested for these kind of threats and we are seeing the FBI actually do something about this, and what effect that's going to have. 161
If... again, this is a far leftist podcast, I don't think we need to describe this in – I don't think I need to say this, but: fuck the FBI, right. I have no love lost for the federal government's law enforcement agencies. At the same time, when you have actual terrorists trying to engender a race war to create an ethnostate, you pick your least worst option in this case... 162
Jack:
Yeah. Yeah. I always think with institutions like the FBI, the really – the best thing to do is to sort of hold them to their professed role and their professed standards, and the – obviously, you know, criticize them when they fail, but still sort of demand that they – often futilely demand, but demand nonetheless – that they live up to what they say they're there to do. 163
Daniel:
Basically, a lot of channels got deleted a couple of weeks ago and a lot of archives got removed. It would certainly be a shame if anybody had some of that, like, sitting on a hard drive somewhere, on a Google drive, and sent it to like twenty people who also have it. That would be a shame if someone did that. 164
Jack:
[deadpan] That would be terrible. 165
Daniel:
[laughs] But yeah, no, it's one of those things where I do like to provide links and a lot of this stuff I can't even provide links for anymore because it's just been wiped from the Internet three or four times, and... 166
Yeah, who knows exactly what shape it's going to take, but I don't see it slowing down based on what I'm seeing. Even if like half these guys get known, get brought up on federal charges or whatever. It's unclear exactly kind of what charges you could lay against some of these guys, [in] particular the guys who are basically just podcasters, who would kind of reside under something like a free speech exception. They do try avoid making direct threats, although some of them have. We'll talk about that next week. 167
It's, you know – there is kind of an open question [as to] exactly what they're going to do, and I mean let's be frank, I mean one of the things that the FBI is well known for sort of – extending, much more – using tactics that get them bitten in the ass in court. By taking legitimately bad people and entrapping them in ways that are illegal, for instance. And that's something that's very common in their execution of – going after Islamic terrorism in the United States and all sorts. It's a lot of their – the issues with they way that they've approached the Patriot movement for instance. 168
They'll surround some right-wing dipshit Patriot guy with FBI informants and egg him on and get him to commit some act of terrorism which – planting a fake bomb or something like that, and then they try and then it goes to court and it's like, well yeah, but who really created this thing. The FBI absolutely engages in terrifying tactics, and I'm not trying to give – I'm not trying to spoon-feed hope into our nazi audience here. You guys are even worse. 169
Jack:
[laughs] 170
Daniel:
But being an honest broker of information here means that I can be honest about, like – the FBI does some shitty things... 171
Jack:
Oh yeah. 172
Daniel:
...and it would be really nice if they actually did things legally in the right way and listened to people who have been trying to tell them about this for a few years, rather than cover their ass and go after people in this haphazard way. It'd be really nice if the FBI would listen to more anti-Fascists, basically. That's kind of where I'm landing on that. Because a lot of us – it's not just me, there are a lot of us who have been tracking this for a long time – but nobody quite knows what to do about it, and that's kind of the issue with that. 173
Outside of that, I don't – like, even if like half these guys get arrested, it's really unclear that there is whole lot that can happen. There are a lot of people trying to track it but it's blowing up, particularly on the kind of the far edges of these forums, in these places that are even harder to track. The thing with – I can download the entirety of Chris Cantwell's archive, right now. I can go and redownload that. I can go and redownload virtually every episode of the Daily Shoah. There is one missing, one where there's some interpersonal drama and – if anybody has that missing episode, please, I'd love to hear it... 174
Jack:
Making lots of requests this week. 175
Daniel:
Yeah, I mean I'm just trying to let other – I mean I'm sharing what I know and hoping that other people will kind of get in contact with me. I'm kind of also being goofy with that, you know, it's one of those things of – I know there is that missing episode of TRS and I'm pretty sure I know what happened but it would be really to listen to that episode and just [incomprehensible 55:35] and three of these people fighting until two of them walked away from the whole project. That would be really funny. 176
Jack:
This is like Doctor Who podcasting again. We're talking about missing episodes. 177
Daniel:
[laughs] Yeah well, there are a ton of missing episodes. 178
Jack:
[laughs] 179
Daniel:
But that's the thing, like, I can go back a relisten to a lot – a lot of this stuff is still up there. The audio of the unironic exterminationism clip is still there. I can go redownload that any time I want to. It hasn't gone anywhere. It's still on their web site. A lot of this stuff never gets archived in the first place. And so if you're not watching it live, and that basically means devoting yourself to this full time in the sense of you can't have a full time job, which – I have a day job, I don't do this in that sense. 180
Jack:
Somebody... 181
Daniel:
You're just going to miss it entirely. There's just nowhere to track it. 182
Jack:
Somebody hire and pay Daniel to do this, please. [chuckles] 183
Daniel:
[chuckles] I mean, you would think that like the SPLC would be doing this, but – or the federal, the feds, you'd think feds could – I could give them a list of URLs to just track. But, you know, nobody reaches out to me on that level, so you know. It's fine. Anyway. 184
I don't think it's going anywhere any time soon. I'm really – we haven't seen another kind of – let's put it this way. I will use this as a chance to wrap up for now, because I think this is a natural stopping point. 185
Jack:
Okay. 186
Daniel:
One of the things, and I gave Jack this JPEG, I did a screenshot of one of the threads from 8chan while the El Paso shooting was happening. And some anon was saying, stop posting your fucking manifestos, eventually. Because all you do when you post your manifesto is you make it traceable back to us, all you're doing is making it this explicitly kind of white nationalist thing, you're just making the feds – you're just giving the feds excuses to come after us. 187
If they think it's just a random act of violence, if they think it's just some thing that's happening, that isn't connected to this, they've got no sort of ability to track it, they've got no – what they want it not stuff that's directly attributable to some group that maybe then the law can come after them. What they want is an increasing tension. They want things to get worse and worse for people. They want more and more shootings, until people are uncomfortable, until people lash out, until... they call it the Boogaloo, in terms of Civil War 2: Electric Boogaloo. That's a term that gets used. If you see people using the word Boogaloo, these are siegepillers. 188
Jack:
Well... 189
Daniel:
When you... 190
Jack:
In fairness, that's very widespread joke, but I mean, in this context, yeah. 191
Daniel:
Right, right, but in this context... like, when you see some guy with a skull mask avatar, something like that – and then they start saying, we're encouraging the Boogaloo. They're using this sort of, the generic Electric Boogaloo joke and putting it into – they say, we want to spark off the Boogaloo, for instance, we want the Boogaloo to happen, we want to do a Boogaloo, et cetera, et cetera. What they mean is mass bloodshed on the streets of the United States – on the streets of other white countries, but they – particularly, this seems to be an American phenomenon. Although there are kind of side groups, there are sort of – I am seeing people talking about European wings of Atomwaffen and other kinds of divisions like that. This is going worldwide, and it is spreading from the United States, so, you're welcome, rest of the world. 192
Jack:
[chuckles] More cultural imperialism from the States there. 193
Daniel:
More cultural imperialism. If only white people have not done enough in this country. 194
Jack:
[laughs] 195
Daniel:
Anyway. I don't think it's going anywhere any time soon. I think is – this is, honestly, some of these people legitimately scare me. Like... 196
Jack:
Oh yeah. Yeah. These are scary people. 197
Daniel:
I never thought when I started, like, oh yeah, I'm going to follow this weird Internet subculture of misogynists and racists, that I'd end up talking about domestic terrorism and the techniques they use to spread their bullshit. But, hey, we don't get to predict our futures, do we. This is just the world we live in. This is 2019. 198
Jack:
Yeah, apparently. Apparently. 199
Daniel:
[chuckles] I'm sure when you messaged me [incomprehensible 1:00:13] okay, I'd love to come on your Doctor Who podcast, that sounds fun, you thought like, in four years we're going to be talking about terrorism. It's gonna be great. 200
Jack:
Yeah, that was always my plan, actually. I had it all mapped out. 201
Daniel:
Anyway. [laughs] 202
Jack:
I've been subtly, subtly manipulating you to this point the whole time. I don't know if you noticed, but... 203
Daniel:
Yeah well, you know, you're the one feeding the information to me and I'm the one going off and committing the atrocities, and by atrocities I mean listening to thousand of hours of racist people talk so that I can then explain it to other people. And then scare them away from my Twitter. One of these guys found me at random and messaged me and retweeted it and said, oh look, this is so-and-so, from one of these podcasts, I wonder if he's going to try to do a Boogaloo today. And then he blocked me, [sarcastic] I wonder why. I wonder why. 204
Jack:
[sarcastic] Can't think. 205
Daniel:
It's not in that many words, but.. anyway. We'll talk about these exact figures next week. That's the plan, I think. 206
Jack:
Okay. So it's, yeah, this episode has morphed into a two-parter before your very astounded ears, listeners. So yeah, we'll be back, I don't know, next week or maybe a week after next. I don't know, we'll see how it goes, with part two about the siegepill. 207
Daniel:
Yeah. 208
Jack:
Okay. 209
Daniel:
I do plan on doing something for next week. If you can't show up next week, Jack, then we'll – we'll fit something in between and then we'll come and come back to it, but... 210
Jack:
Okay, yeah. We'll provide you with some kind of content next time, to distract you momentarily from the ongoing slow painful death of Western civilization. Briefly. 211
Yeah, so that was episode, that was episode 28. If you want to, you can find us on Twitter. I'm @_jack_graham_ and Daniel as @danieleharper. Do get in touch with feedback, compliments, praise... lauding, worship, anything you like. Information, tips, criticism, did I say criticism already? Anything you like, basically, as long as it's nice. And we also both have Patreons. We really do appreciate any help you can give us. It genuinely does help us to make this show, but it also helps just to listen and to tell people about it and we appreciate every listener. See, I can do the podcast shtick after all. 212
Daniel:
You're just out of practice. It's been a couple of weeks I guess. 213
Jack:
Exactly. Yeah, I just need to get back into the groove. 214
Okay, well – I'm done. Are you done? 215
Daniel:
I'm done. We're definitely done for now, yeah. We will come back to this in the next episode, and we'll get into the nitty gritty of – the details of these terrible people. And once we've done that it will be a lot easier now. That's what we're going to do. 216
Jack:
And I think I'm right in saying that there will be Cantwell News sort of interwoven through the texture of the next episode. 217
Daniel:
Yeah, it turns out – so I've been hyping the – there's a big Cantwell story that's been brewing in the background, and that's intimately related to these guys, and the fact that they were harassing him on his radio show, incessantly, for months. And then he doxed a couple of them, and as he circles the drain he lives in fear of the siegepillers, and a particular group of particularly nasty siegepillers at that, and – yeah, that's enough of a preview for this epic, very funny story, which involves literal terrorists. 218
Jack:
Yeah. It's sort of – this podcast has a tone problem. Ehm... [laughs] 219
Daniel:
[laughs] This project has a tone problem. 220
Jack:
This planet has a tone problem. [laughs] 221
Daniel:
This is the problem with writing about this stuff. This is the problem with trying to cover this stuff and – I've been trying to figure out how to write about this for three years because there is no way not to make it funny and there is no way not to make it terrifying. It's, you know, it's what it is. This universe was written George Romero, that's my – I'm convinced of that. 222