Hello and welcome to episode nine of I Don't Speak German.

Welcome, possibly lots more of you than previously this time – because we've had a sudden spike in download numbers, quite a huge one actually. So, hi newbies, welcome to I Don't Speak German. This is, as I say, episode nine of the podcast where I talk to Daniel Harper about what he learned from more than two years of listening to the American far right, white supremacists, et cetera, talk to each other in their online safe spaces, their podcasts, their Youtube videos, et cetera.

Hi, Daniel, how are you doing?

Considering all of the things that I've been listening to lately, I'm doing great. Like, never that well given just sort of the day-to-day drudgery. But we're doing fine. We're doing fine.

Yeah, this is it. I mean, when I say how you doing and you say I'm doing fine, I take that in context. In the context of a life spent listening to nazis talk to each other. So, fine –

I actually only listened to like an hour of that today. I was doing other stuff, so, yay?

You're losing it.

I'm getting, I'm getting behind. I'm going to have to listen to some more after we do this. So that's the thing, I have to do so many hours a day or else I do actually start to fall behind.

That's right. You need to get your fix.

[laughs] We should just move on from that. That's going to take us into some really uncomfortable places.

Yeah, this is it. It's best not analyzed, probably, too deeply. So this is episode 9 and the subject of this episode is, Mike Enoch and the Right Stuff podcast network and the Daily Shoah. I still haven't gotten over it, the fact that that's what it's called. But –

Well, we're basically just doing the Daily Shoah today because the rest of the Right Stuff will take up another two or three episodes. And we're going to try and do this in one. So this is Mike Enoch and the Daily Shoah specifically today.

Sure. But this is going to function as a sort of an intro to the Right Stuff.

Definitely.

But before we can get to that lovely topic, we do need to – I mean, firstly, we could do Cantwell News, but then we could apparently do that at the start of every fucking show. Apparently we could just do an entire show that's just Cantwell News, but we're not going to do that.

It's just – the bullshit that Cantwell is getting himself involved in. It turned out that when we did the Cantwell episode, it just happened to be in a particularly, uhm, rich vein of Cantwell bullshit as well. Because he's been in rare form, even for Cantwell lately. And so there really is – I'm glad we already did that, those episodes, so that I didn't have to try to cram all of this stuff that's happened since in the last month into one of those episodes as well. Because my God, this man is creating loads and loads of bullshit.

He is a one-man omnishambles.

Yes. And just to mention, I was going to kind of cover the news of the Heel Turn Network. If you remember episode 1 – I said that the Heel Turn Network was sort of Richard Spencer's new gig and that it was weird that he was sort of taking over this tiny little thing that's in the corner of the Internet and then he was kind of making that his baby.

This whole stuff moves so fast that, two months later, since we recorded that episode, it had become one of the central hubs of content creation. And as I was prepping this and I said, oh yeah, I'm going to talk about that as part of the intro, that it's actually gotten much bigger and it's much more important. Two days ago it completely collapsed from the inside and Cantwell seems to have been in some way responsible for that or at least connected to that.

I wouldn't want to say responsible, that's giving him too much credit. So all of that tells you there has been a lot of shit going on in the last few weeks and I've just – we could cover just all that and fill episodes' worth. And we have much more important things to talk about today. Don't worry, we'll come back to all of it.

Although I think we should take the credit to be honest. I think –

Yeah, I know, I know. I think it's really us. We did this. We have shut down Heel Turn.

Yeah, go us.

So, yeah, there's that, as I say, we're going to skip over the Cantwell News because that could just be an episode unto itself. And we do need to do a little recap on something that we talked about in the previous episode, which is the National Socialist Movement and James Stern, do you want to tell us about that?

Sure. Well, so there's a very nice piece in the Washington Post, which I'm going to link in the show notes. It is worth one of your X number, I think four, free articles you get to read a month.

I actually subscribed to the Washington Post because it's kind of my source for mainstream news. So, you know.

But there is a very nice piece in the Post and it does kind of go into some of the details. Now, I feel a little bad because I was really skeptical of this when we covered it last week and I kind of like poo-pooed it. I thought that Stern was being manipulated by Jeff Schoep and the NSM. And that's because I worked on the presumption that Jeff Schoep was not a completely oblivious, stupid person.

Not a total moron.

Right. But that was unfortunately treating him far, far too kindly.

It was giving him too much benefit of the doubt.

It was. He has been the leader of this group for twenty, for nearly twenty-five years. And he literally signed the rights to in a way to this guy, James Stern. He got apparently tricked out of it, although they are also trying to avoid some of the legal battles that come from the Sines v Kessler case, which we covered in one of the Charlottesville episodes. And so it was part of kind of this legal action, but Stern seems to have taken over the National Socialist Movement. He's going to turn it into – the website and everything, the few resources they have, it's going to be turned into a Holocaust memorial, and –

[laughs]

– everybody is running like flies from the NSM. So it's great. It's great.

So Stern is like a – he's an information terrorist.

I mean, I wouldn't want to give him that. I mean that makes it sound more negative than it is. I mean, it sounds like he's –

Oh no, I meant it in a good way.

[laughs] Right. He's – I was like, oh, he's going to come in and do this racial reconciliation thing, and it just seemed like he was letting himself be used by these guys, but it turned out – I mean, he fooled me. I'm going to be – I mean, I was really iffy on it. I just wasn't sure, but I was kind of leaning in that direction. So I don't want to like kick myself too hard. But Stern has completely destroyed the NSM. And that's pretty amazing.

Fantastic.

This piece also has some interviews with Heimbach, who we covered last week. Heimbach says there were only about 40 dues-paying members in the NSM.

The NSM is both kind of considered to be one of the largest kind of networks of white supremacy in America and they may have only had 40 dues-paying members. Those two things are not necessarily in conflict with each other. If you understand that the dues-paying members are only a small proportion of the people who sort of align with its aims and attend rallies and such.

So, anyway, that's that. NSM is over.

I expect James Schoep,or Jeff Schoep to found some other organization, sometime later this year or next year and keep doing what he's doing. I don't expect him to go away. These people don't go away. But that's where we land, and I do recommend reading that whole piece. I'm not going to read it here. Also, again, we have other stuff to cover today, but it is worth a read.

Yeah. Check that out. I will just say, well done, James Stern.

Yes.

Yu are a fucking legend, sir.

Yup, definitely.

Okay, so, moving on to the main topic of this episode, which is Mike Enoch and the Daily – again, I can't get over that the fucking thing is called the Daily Shoah. I just can't – maybe that's just me revealing what a naive milquetoast I am, but I've never gotten over that. When you told me about that. That it's called that.

It's honestly, like, this is kind of key to understanding what they're doing actually – is that it is sort of meant – you're meant to have that reaction. That's the point.

Well, if it's meant to shock, I mean, they succeeded. Because, you know, it is shocking. I'm not going to pretend I've been in a permanent state of tears about it the whole time if that's what they're after. But it is nonetheless, you know, there is a foul taste in the mouth and it doesn't go away. Let's put it that way.

I definitely agree. And I'm just going to – I'm going to say just here at the outset of us talking about this, that, as you can tell from the fact that just getting past the title takes a little bit of effort and takes – I've been trying to sort of keep these fairly safe to listen to.

We are talking about racism and nazis and stuff, but I have been trying to sort of dull the edges of it a bit in, order to make it listenable radio and to make sure that people are not put off by me describing it in the terms that it should be described in.

There's really no way to avoid a certain amount of – some of the proper nouns in this episode are going to be slurs. That's just the nature of this. And so I'm going to ask for a little bit more latitude in this one, in terms of – I am going to have to use some words that I'd rather not use here.

That said, if you are kind of put off by that or if that's going to bother you, I fully understand skipping this episode. And I'm just going to kind of leave it at that.

Yeah, absolutely. I mean take care, take care of yourself, do what you got to do. But big fat content warning because... nasty stuff coming up and we're not going to – I mean, we try to be as honest as possible, but as Daniel says, we also try to make it a not an absolutely objectionable experience every time you listen to us for an hour or so. As much as possible, we try to make it light and bearable. There's just no way to sugar coat this stuff. There just isn't.

One of the things with the journalism around this stuff is that, if you read like a news – like a piece in like the Washington Post or the Huffington Post or whatever, and it'll say, so and so was found with materials of an antisemitic nature or was found with racist diatribes on his computer or whatever. And they avoid describing it out of propriety and out of – you know, these are mainstream publications that don't want to put things like the Daily Shoah up in their headlines for instance.

And I understand that and I agree with that.

At the same time, if you are looking for the nuances and you're looking for the details, someone like me, I read these pieces and I want to know exactly what they're reading so that I can place it within a more nuanced and detailed context. And often that information is really kind of hard to come by. And so there is kind of a balancing act with this stuff. But I also think that like that very act of avoiding using the kind of the language that they use leads to a certain leveling of the stuff...

Yeah.

...to where you just kind of hear like, oh, we had like a racist pamphlet and you think like, oh, maybe that's like a Ben Shapiro thing or whatever and not a pamphlet with the happy merchant meme, describing how the Jews are out to destroy white America or whatever. And there are some nuances there, there are some differences there. And I think it's important to – part of this project is trying to give it that weight.

And in this episode, my goal here is to let you see how bad some of this stuff is. Because I do think it's important that this isn't like ordinary Fox News, Tucker Carlson level stuff. This is truly appalling content that should not exist frankly.

They say the quiet very loud indeed, these people.

Right.

There is – this sort of goes all the way down. Not to get too far off topic, but it does annoy me because this kind of – the line between being tasteful, as the media understands taste, and making excuses, or sort of covering up for people, is fuzzy.

Even if they don't mean to, it's often what they end up doing.

They will sort of – in their endless quest for objectivity and fairness and balance, which they of course misunderstand as meaning sort of always giving both sides, even when there is only one side. They will report things like, Steve King says, or even people more mainstream, Ted Cruz or Marco Rubio or whoever. It happens in this country too. They will report vile things these people say, and they will report them with sort of euphemisms like racially tinged remarks, you know...

Sure.

...whereas what they mean is racist remarks. And if they can't even be honest about people like that when they're openly racist, then how are they going to deal objectively with people like Mike Enoch? It's a wider problem, is all I'm saying.

Right. Yeah, definitely.

But yeah... so if you want to start in on the [laughs] unpleasantness.

So we can – just to clarify, I'm not going to say the word Shoah five thousand times in this episode.

They have fairly successfully rebranded, at least internally. They no longer call their show The Daily Shoah. They call it TDS, or Tedious.... and that's supposed to, in some way, sort of distance themselves from the horror of the name.

This was done partly in response to the publicity around the lawsuit. Everybody who listens to it knows exactly what this content is. But they do call themselves TDS, and so I'm just going to kind of use that just to kind of simplify it and make it easier to talk about.

And it is actually easier than saying Shoah endlessly.

Right. This is the show that I have spent the most time listening to.

I've spent more time with these people than anyone else that I followed with this. This is one of the biggest propaganda sources in what might be – what we would generally call the alt-right. TDS gets – it's hard to estimate podcast listening numbers in general, like just anyway, but most estimates are that they get somewhere between ten and a hundred thousand listeners per episode, with a kind of median number being like in the forty, fifty thousand range seems to be a reasonable best guess.

They do have a Youtube channel...

...which is...

...sorry, go ahead.

...terrifying. That's terrifying.

Wait till you hear the material, like, you know...

That's why it's terrifying. Material like they should not be getting anything like that much of a hearing.

Right. I mean that's almost as many listeners we get on this podcast, Jack. [laughs]

I know, they're catching up on us, aren't they? [laughs]

That' sarcasm, listeners.

Yeah, no, we don't get anywhere near that, but...

We treasure every single one of you.

We do.

Tell your friends... anyway, sorry, go on.

Please, share with a friend. That's the – tell other friends about the podcast that you listen to you that is talking about vile, disgusting shit like this.

So... Yeah, man, I'm trying to find the way into this. It's just difficult. So I've spent many, many, many hours listening to this. There is something like 400 currently released episodes, of which I've listened to probably three quarters of the total ones. Because this is one where I actually went back and listened to it from the beginning.

It started in late 2014 and it grew out of a bunch of guys posting on – in Facebook discussion groups and – kind of 2010, 2011, like political chat groups. And these are guys who are kind of in this kind of edgy libertarian space. Lots of a kind of racist jokes. I'm going to kind of describe the four guys to you who are, kind of the key members here in a second.

But people think that, like, 4chan is the origin of this stuff.

And 4chan is important, don't get me wrong.

But that's really sort of your – that's like the troll army. Those are the kind of the nameless figures who just kind of – pushing memes, pushing stuff into – those are the people on Twitter with the Pepe avatars and eight numbers in their handle. Kind of the auto-generated bot kind of handles. That's those guys, who – they have eight followers and then when they get banned they just create twenty more.

Those aren't the sort of top level people doing – actually propagating and creating narratives and memes. Those aren't the, like, important people in the movement. They don't really spend time on 4chan.

Some of them kind of get started on Reddit. Some of them get started on – Twitter was a huge place until they kind of all got banned or most of them got banned. But The Right Stuff started off as basically a Facebook discussion group and then eventually, when they started getting like longer form conversations together and enough posts together, they formed a website, and they started therightstuff.biz and they called it dot biz just because they thought it was funny.

And it's a mix of sort of like fairly high-minded political conversation around this sort of vaguely libertarian neoreaction movement and kind of edgy jokes, lots of stuff that's just kind of racial humor and that sort of thing. And it's this mix of it that becomes kind of the genesis of, in a lot of ways, of the tone, and the sort of the cultural content that we come to associate with the alt-right.

One of the things that I think I have failed to approach in the previous episodes is that I've been describing these figures in kind of giving a lot of background, but I haven't given a lot of experience, like why people get into this.

Like the alt-right was born with Paul Gottfried and Richard Spencer. The term was, and sort of the growth of the movement. Matthew Heimbach was building a political movement, a political party built around – kind of National Socialist principles, and he had a website that had kind of a list of things that they believed in and that sort of thing. But that's not the thing that made people – that made this thing happen in a real way on the Internet.

There are a lot of debates about exactly what the generative event is and this is the – it's a big kind of complicated question.

There are some people who believe that there is some kind of big money man who sort of was pushing this stuff in there, you know, behind the scenes. I can't confirm or deny that. I would believe it if it comes out, but regardless of sort of the details, the weighting of particular things, the creation of the Right Stuff blog and in particular the creation of the Daily Shoah podcast in 2014 is one of the really clear crystalizing events that created this new cultural movement.

The triple parentheses meme started out on the Daily Shoah, starting in one of their very early episodes. They have a reverb panel where they can – basically a sound board where they can make things echo in the audio and in real time, live. And so, whenever they would do a Jewish name or a name that sounds Jewish – like Silverstein – they would make it reverberate. And that was just kind of one of the jokes that they made.

And then in order to sort of represent that in text on forums, they started putting triple parentheses around it. And then that becomes a thing that goes, that gets propagated all throughout the Internet.

And this literally started and was popularized by a couple of guys recording over Skype in their basements, on this podcast that never had any kind of major distribution network, that was just like some guys fucking around. They'd never been on iTunes. They used to call themselves the biggest podcast on Soundcloud. And Soundcloud banned their asses fairly early on. But I believe it, like they were getting tens of thousands of downloads at a time.

Again, it is this mix of a sort of political, meta-political, kind of cultural conversation combined with – it's kind of fairly, I mean – I don't want to say intellectual, it's certainly not like academic, but it's certainly like sort of higher-minded than what you're going to see on cable news at any given time.

It's sort of that kind of higher-minded Internet discourse stuff. And it's the combination of that with this explicitly racist humor that really took off, and that really becomes the really kind of generative thing. And in that sense it is massively, massively important to understand what these guys are like and who this is, and who they are, and what the show is, in order to understand like why this became popular.

And to that end, I'm now going to tell you, the four current members of the Daily Shoah, the four guys who are the sort of four paid employees of this is network that we know of. There may be some others, but these guys are sort of the four main guys. There are a couple of a former guys who have been doxed, who have a left the TRS network and are doing other things. I'm not really going to talk too much about them. They kind of have their own importance on the ground, but they're not important to this story and this episode. Because I'd like to tell you who they are now and what the before and after Unite the Right kind of process is.

So I'm going to introduce you to these four guys.

The main guy is this guy Mike Enoch. He and the kind of second in command were doxed at one time in early 2017, right after the Trump election but before the inauguration, I believe, it's around that time frame. Mike Enoch, his real name is Mike Peinovich. His father is a university professor. His parents are kind of very WASPy New England types who donate lots of money to a Democratic political candidates.

He grew up in a million-dollar home. Very much that kind of standard issue alt-right figure that I've kind of described previously. These are kind of well-off kids who grew up in the suburbs and – he ends up going to New York City. He gets a job at AOL around the time of the dotcom boom in the late nineties and early two thousands, without a college degree. I think he might have had a little bit of college, but mostly just kind of self-educated. He learned to code and has kind of coasted along in his coding career ever since, up until the moment when he got doxed and when he got unceremoniously shitcanned and made this his whole-time gig.

He was, at the time he got doxed, married to a Jewish woman who – they have since divorced. He does not talk about anything about that on the show. The clear implication is that there is a kind of a gag order preventing him from talking about anything about his wife or his personal life at that point. And he is a manifestly careful to never ever mention anything about that in public as far as I can tell.

It is because of his Jewish wife, or his Jewish ex-wife now, that he is denigrated as a Jew in other parts of the – this far-right racist Internet. And, in some circles he is called – again, I apologize here. He is called Mike The Kike Peinovich because he is – they think he's Jewish and they isolate segments of him talking about his Jewish wife and sort of like, oh, am I tainted because I had a Jewish wife, et cetera, and they use that as a way of sort of demonstrating that he's actually talking about his own genetic heritage and the like. I listen to all these things, like in the original context, it's complete nonsense.

So far as I know, there's no evidence that he actually has Jewish heritage. It's apparently mostly Norwegian heritage, but that's Mike Enoch.

He's a good Aryan then.

He's a good – [laughs] ...right. I think it's Norwegian and English or something.

Oh, Anglo-Saxon. Even better.

Right? Yeah, no, he's got – with a name like Peinovich, it is kind of like, a hundred years ago, you wouldn't have been living in this country either, you shithead.

Yeah, exactly.

He has a kind of a history with the far right, noodling about online. He published a couple of pieces in one of the Mises publications, the von Mises Institute publications a couple of times.

He had a blog. He was– he flirted around with this kind of far-right neoreactionary libertarian stuff. They called it edgitarianism in sort of the early days of the podcast. Really didn't embrace a really –

Sorry, edgitarian as in an edge?

As in edgy libertarian, yes. As in we're libertarians, but we're also race realists and stuff, and we'll kind of do the – and we'll kind of go places that the respectable libertarian organizations like Reason or whatever won't. And this kind of sense of approaching this material in that way, again becomes really central to the brand and to the movement, certainly in kind of 2015 to up until Unite the Right basically, and even today to a large degree, it becomes central to the Right Stuff brand in general. And to the Daily Shoah in particular.

TRS – I kind of differentiate between the two, although TRS also has hosted many, many different other podcasts from other people who are sometimes directly and sometimes tangentially kind of connected to Enoch and his buddies.

At this point, I looked at their website this morning, they have 18 podcasts that they release, most of which are – have been around for a little while and at least a third of which are kind of directly the same guys who do the Daily Shoah just kind of doing other shows. At one point that was more like 40 or 50, and it was kind of like very kind of indifferent quality.

One of the things about the kind of the declustering after Unite the Right is that TRS kind of went into a self-protection mode, Enoch particular went into self-protection mode and basically disavowed, quietly or overtly, everybody that he thought might not kind of get into line with his own feelings about how this thing should be branded. He is the one person who managed to talk himself out of the Sines v. Kessler lawsuit, which we talked about a bit in one of the Charlottesville episodes. And it seems to me he just gave the judge enough double talk and that he actually argued his case.

I was amazed when it happened, but – the man can talk, I'm not going to say he can't, he is a very good at kind of spinning memes. He's very good at spinning this sort of meta-political language.

Some of them are very good at it, like squid squirting the cloud of ink into which they can disappear.

Right. I mean, in the episode on Cantwell, I talked a little bit about the Talmudic reasoning stuff. The – sort of using this kind of, the Talmudery of, like arguing around and kind of using a high verbal IQs in order to kind of trick white people into believing certain things.

I kind of – it kind of came up just because, it kind of came up naturally in conversation, but that stuff isn't really associated with Cantwell. It's associated with Enoch. Enoch is the king of that.

In terms of accusing other people of it or doing it himself?

In terms of accusing other people of doing it, in terms of being able to sort of shift – he considers himself a narrative guy. The whole point of the show is to take the news of the day and then spin it in a direction that ultimately all of these stories are about race.

Ultimately, all of the problems that we're having in the society are resolvable down to some kind of base racial conflict or racial resentment. It's all about these a Jewish power brokers who are kind of controlling the media, who are controlling the narrative, quote unquote. And, it's all about this political spin, this kind of sociopolitical cultural spin that he puts on every event and just kind of spins it all in his way.

A lot of people – and I disagree with some people who kind of covered these guys – a lot of people I talked to think that Enoch is dumb, because he says some manifestly dumb things. I don't. I think he's smart. I think he's mendacious. I think he's lying. And I've listened to enough of him that I think he's smart enough to know that what he's saying is bullshit.

I mean, I think he believes the thing he believes, but I think he knows that he's spinning and he's doing it as a sort of professional political actor. I mean, he does this for a living now. He is a professional political commentator. He's just not doing it on like Fox News or whatever.

Yeah. It sounds sort of like the far right version of Glenn Beck to me.

And the fact that we could even say the words, the far right version of Glenn Beck, Glenn Beck being the like reasonable moderate center, that's very 2019, right?

Yes, that's very – that's terrifying. But that is where we are. Glenn Beck is less mainstream than he used to be, but he's still mainstream compared to these guys.

But it's just in the form, I was thinking of, which is that he inhabits, that fuzzy zone somewhere in between, talking complete batshit rubbish and knowing he's doing it and doing it for the money and the viewers because it's his job, et cetera. And he's a performer. And actually sort of believing it.

Because I remember when Glenn Beck sort of hit, it was about 10 years ago and now I suppose he was on Fox News and he was sort of a cultural obsession with people. And people sort of – the narrative about him was always, oh, he's crazy. Oh, he's a lunatic, he's paranoid, et cetera. And I remember thinking, no, he's a really bad actor. That's what he is. But at the same time, of course, they do still believe this crazy stuff. It's just that some of them...

I think Glenn Beck, I mean kind of has come out and said that like, oh, some of that stuff I was – I mean, it was kind of an act. It was kind of just for television ratings.

Well they are doing it in furtherance of things they really believe, aren't they?

Exactly. And it is sort of this case where, for instance, I believe fully that Mike Enoch believes everything he says about racial hierarchies and differences. And kind of creating a white ethnostate in North America, for instance. He believes that; that's not the bullshit. I mean, it's stupid to believe that, but he believes it for his own reasons.

But he lies in furtherance of that, in the sense of – for instance, he was a kind of one of the big people who was spinning the Heather Heyer death, at Unite the Right.

He was the one who sort of came up with the back of the car was hit by antifascists and that's the fear, kind of spurred him to go on. And he said that within hours of this event happening. And it was certainly the first place I saw like that narrative happen and it just kind of spread like wildfire throughout the movement because Enoch very effective at kind of coming up with these things that are going to spread.

It's always the best propagandists do this. I'm not necessarily saying he's a great propagandist, but...

Oh, he is a great propagandist. I mean that's the danger. If he wasn't as good as he is...

...he wouldn't have had the influence he's had.

Exactly. Exactly. So...

But they – the best propagandists do this. They will consciously and cynically lie and manipulate the truth and spin stuff that they know isn't true. And they will do it from deep conviction because there is no amount of mendacity that isn't justified in terms of pushing what they believe to be the deeper truth.

Exactly. I mean, I think there's a sense of, like framing a guilty man sort of thing that's going on in some of this where – I think I can demonstrate particular things where, like, he has to know this isn't real, but he'll never admit it and he will never – and so you'll never be able to really demonstrate it to a large degree of certainty. But at the same time, he will in no way, like... it's all in service of the sort of the greater good in his mind and the greater good is ethnic cleansing of the United States.

Yeah.

That's it. So Enoch kind of comes out of this kind of pseudo-intellectual kind of Internet world, lots of discussions online. He reads a fair number of books. he's a – he mentions Kevin Carson from time to time, which is weird for me, like... he claims to have kind of gone through a Marxist phase, like, I don't believe that for a second, but he claims to have kind of been kind of a leftist for a while and I mean, I believe he's kind of flirted around with some different ideologies. I mean, he can kind of speak to a – mutualism for instance, in ways that does not feel entirely off.

He kind of comes out of that sort of intellectual dorm room discussion side of the Internet during the kind of 2000s. This is sort of like – I believe he spent a lot of time in Internet forums, arguing about arcane politics.

Oh yeah. I mean, I did a little bit of research into him myself for a previous project and at the same time I read a little bit of Mencius Moldbug, the neoreactionary, and it's very similar because, Moldbug will drop loads of names of people that he's read, he will talk about Mises and Hobbes and Locke and... et cetera, et cetera, et cetera. And it's sort of superficially extremely learned and erudite, but the actual content of it is just drivel.

Oh yeah, I know, absolutely. And a lot of the actual content in the Shoah at this point is, they'll – because they now have a sort of video component. They've got enough money to actually like set up cameras and they do a kind of video version that's only behind their paywall. And many of their shows, like a third of their shows are only behind the paywall, plus they have paywall-only podcasts that they do. And so like video is a huge part of their thing. But I only listened to the audio version because I do not pay these people money. But they have a...

There's no ethical consumption under capitalism, but some consumptions are more ethical than others. [laughs]

If I thought they were releasing content that was really important for me to have behind the paywall, I would be willing to give them the 10 bucks a month, don't get me wrong. But every indication I've seen is that it's basically the same stuff they're already kind of putting out for free, just more of it. And the last thing I need is more of Mike Enoch's yelling into my ears.

In the last analysis, they're all fucking grifters as well, so...

Right. Exactly. And, again, I'm not giving him money. If I thought there was a utility behind it, I wouldn't have a problem with it. But there's not, so I'm not.

A lot of what they do – they'll kind of cover new stories, but then they'll also sort of dredge – kind of dredge up some piece of Internet ephemera and play it and then talk over it and make fun of it in these – just, you know take this thing – we just kind of ended February and February is black history month.

So every year they do a thing called fake black history month where they talk about all the, like – all the things that you're learning in black history month are actually not real. For instance that – so they won't examine sort of the realistic legacy of race and invention in America, they just point to the fact that, oh, George Washington Carver, he invented peanut butter, yeah, and we ended in quantum physics, duh. It's literally that kind of content, but...

That's the level of it then.

That's the level of it with many, many more racial slurs and with even lower level of continuity. And they've gone over that over and over again.

In fact, I have a segment that maybe we'll cover in detail some time where they discuss the inventor of the potato chip who is often on these lists – these kind of Internet lists of like African American inventors. And they go over and it's like, oh yes, this black man just was getting uppity with a white guy. And he's giving them the [incomprehensible] of the story – canonical folk myth about the creation of the potato chip – I guess the crisp in the UK.

The story is that there is a chef who was told the potatoes, the fried potatoes he was making were too thick. And so he makes them like super thin and boils them in oil and then brings them up and then, oh, look, the potato chip. This story is completely apocryphal, it's complete horseshit.

They believe in the story because they believe that it, when it says, what that really means is that there's this uppity black man who decided that he wasn't going to give the white man what he wanted, and he was going to just, shove it in his face.

And then it just ended up being something that like some other white guy realized was going to be really popular and managed to kind of build into a full industry.

There's a really fascinating story behind the invention of the potato chip and this figure, which we will discuss later on because it actually is interesting – but it does kind of show that like they completely don't know anything. Like the modicum of research behind that is revealing a much deeper, more interesting world. It's kind of a fascinating story. I've got a clip, I might put it up in the show notes for you, but anyway, sorry, go ahead Jack.

No, that's fine. Don't worry. I was just going to point out that they have to claim that something a black man supposedly invented was invented by accident, but I think you covered that, so don't worry. Right.

Well, and somewhat – I mean, so much of invention is sort of by accident and so many...

Oh yeah!

...I think the point is also that like – there's no evidence that that's even true. I mean, there are levels of bullshit here that I'm just not like prepared to discuss in detail. That's just one of those clips in my head because it was one of the early times that I heard them just completely spew off into this nonsense and they'll go off for like a twenty-minute segment about – a black man invented the potato chip and how ridiculous they think that is on so many levels.

And then the second you do the slightest bit of research into it, you realize that like they're completely off their rocker. They have no understanding, they don't do any fucking research, they don't know anything.

So like the intellectual content is at the level of like reciting stuff like, oh I'm Isaac Newton discovered gravity when an apple fell on his head, and George Washington cut down the cherry tree and then said, I cannot tell a lie, father. And they just repeat stuff like this that they think is relevant to their racist agenda. When – just going to Wikipedia could tell them that this stuff is just folk history. That's the level we're talking about.

That's the level we're talking about. Like sort of that perspective.

Jesus Christ.

And I mean sometimes they will sort of have enough knowledge to kind of get – well, they will look into it enough to say like, oh, and then it turns out that things weren't so simple and it ends up being like this. But it's always in furtherance of a predetermined conclusion, which is that... which is white supremacy, ultimately.

And so, they will get highly convoluted and make kind of pseudo-intellectual arguments about stuff, but it's always in furtherance of this kind of particular – the conclusion is already set, and there's no attempt to validate that because like validating stuff is for cucks, right?

It's going to be like stuff about IQ that they got from the Bell Curve and old copies of the Ron Paul newsletters.

Right. Oh, they talk about IQ constantly. I mean, the IQ thing – we'll probably end up having to do an episode on IQ...

[sarcastic] Really?

There's no way to get around that I think. but...

Gee, I did not see that coming. [laughs]

Sorry, listeners. This is in stuff between me and Daniel...

There's so much behind-the-scenes stuff where it's like we start like listing episodes and it's like, oh my god, it just multiplies the more we talk about it.

IQ never comes up when Daniel talks about this off air to me... [laughs]

No. [laughs]

...he never mentions IQ, so...

I don't get really upset at really stupid people talking about IQ. It never bothers me, at all. Should I pull out my copy of the Bell Curve, nah, let's not do that today.

We'll do the IQ on another – don't worry, we will get to that. [laughs]

So I should mention that it might...

That will be a separate seventeen-episode series on IQ. [laughs]

[laughs] ...on the history of racists abusing IQ.

There are probably is, I would love to hear an actual like IQ researcher do an actual kind of deep dive on the literature. I think there is a kind of fascinating, limited series about just the way that racists use IQ in their arguments, but...

Anyway. I want to highlight one more thing or at least kind of move on a little bit from Enoch, because he's not the only person. There are three other people that we should mention, who are sort of the kind of main – they call it the Death Panel, it's the sort of – today on the Death Panel we've got Mike and Sven and et cetera. And then they kind of bring on guests and at least...

[deadpan] It's funny.

...yeah, exactly, this is the level of humor. Vox Day has been on the show – I mean, basically everybody who is in that sort of far-right space.

Oh well there's some intellectualism for you right there.

Right. Vox Day.

Vox Day is – for the listeners, I don't know, maybe not, maybe who don't know: Vox Day is a racist fantasy author, I suppose. And an all round shitweasel who – you might have heard about him in connection with him completely fucking up the Hugo Awards a few years ago.

Yeah, the Rabid Puppies were him. I've been...

Again, there's a Descent of Man-osphere episode on him. Go and watch that.

Which is pretty good, no – but yes, basically everybody in this kind of far right space kind of guested or at least sort of was – a whole lot of people guested on the Daily Shoah in 2016 and 2017, or a couple in 2015 to 2017. It was a really popular hub for this stuff. And then again after Unite the Right as part of the optics debate and they just sort of shut it up and it became much more – just us and our sort of, like, key people that we trust to kind of stay on, to stay in, within the balance of what we consider acceptable.

...in our safe space.

...in our safe space, exactly, because they're really terrified. I mean, Enoch is terrified. Any time they even mentioned opening up somebody's mail or something, it's like, oh, we would never do that in real life. He's terrified about being accused of crimes, that like the FBI is going to listen and use the slightest excuse to kind of come after him. That's not an unreasonable fear. If I were Mike Enoch – he's very smart about that.

I mean, the thing that you hear a lot if you – they call it fedposting, right? Where, oh god, this gets like – in so many of these memes like to describe them is to sort of, they're three levels deep, but...

The idea of fedposting is that if you're within this movement, any time you see anyone sort of overtly planning crimes or anyone sort of saying things that, like, hey, wouldn't it be nice if we go blow up a building or wouldn't it be nice if we kind of do this: – they're actually either a federal agent or a federal informant, trying to entrap you. And so in the sort of modern movement, anytime anybody kind of does something of that nature, they're immediately suspect. And so, when people do say like, oh, it would be nice if we could just kill them all, they will then append comma, in a video game. So like in Minecraft or Call of Duty, et cetera; because that way it's not real. It's satire.

And so that's just kind of another thing that seems to have originated – I don't think it actually originated with the Shoah, but certainly, again – kind of a big popularizer of it. There are lots and lots of memes that you can sort of track as – come directly from like this group of a handful of guys, kind of bullshitting on a microphone. And then the forums that no longer exist as far as I can tell, but for a long time they have forums and you'd see a kind of forum members kind of coming up with stuff in like text form.

Sometimes even in terms of like the pronunciation of words.

For instance, they will pronounce the word interesting, with the sort of high-pitched, stereotypical female, valley girl voice with, kind of a long 'i'. And so it'll be like, iinteresting. I can't really do it because I'm not good at making voices that way; but if you hear someone pronouncing interesting in that way, or if you see it in a post or on a forum somewhere with the double "i", so two "i"s at the beginning of interesting, that's a TRS meme. That comes from these guys.

What is that, what is that supposed to mean?

It's just supposed to mean that – it's part of the deep misogyny in the movement, like these memes don't even have meaning anymore. It's just...

Oh, it's just – it just is the insult to valley girls.

It is the insult to valley girls, right.

Okay, I see.

So I mean, it's essentially like so, oh, so you're like talking to women and you're like on a date or whatever. And she's like, well, isn't it iinteresting that we have – like that people are still racist these days, like that sort of thing.

I see. It's about how girls are bunch of empty headed morons. I see.

Exactly. Exactly.

From this bunch. From these fuckers. Good.

Enoch is very proud. He has bragged about the point, several times, that there has never been a female guest host on the Daily Shoah. That's not technically true...

[laughs]

...but it's close to true.

It's not technically true.

They have had some – at the beginning of the – in the early days they actually had a kind of cadre of female – not co-hosts, but sort of like segment producers who did this thing called the Shitlord Report and they would kind of pre-write segments and then they would make racist jokes and stuff. And that was a deliberately female segment. And they have had – but it is almost true that they have never had a female voice on that show. And certainly not in the last year or two.

[laughs] I don't know if that's worse or better.

[laughs] I am just reporting here.

[laughs] It just is what it is.

I just love the fact that he brags about something that isn't true and they say, oh, it's not really true... but like it's basically true. I don't know, I could like, there's another like...

Sounds like Talmudic logic to me.

Oh, it does, doesn't it? One of the other – they'll pronounce the word segue, like, oh, we got to like segue into the next segment or whatever and they'll it pronounce segyoo. And they seem to do that just because it's funny to them. But like they say it every time. They go, oh, we got to do another segyoo. And so...

It's real thing with this, isn't it, in these racists subcultures of just this sort of adolescent in-group, in-joke humor. I mean, trace it right the way back to the early Klan...

Absolutely.

It's sort of frat boys fucking about and creating silly rituals.

And I think that that's the thing. I mean this kind of gets back to kind of part of where we started here, where, the point isn't, we call ourselves the Daily Shoah and we are actually openly advocating a daily Holocaust. That's not the point. The point is multifold. One, if you see that title and you're immediately put off by it, you're not our audience. If you see that title and you think it's kind of funny, I mean literally like some – a lot of this humor is just finding new ways of saying the same old racist bullshit, but in sort of clever new ways. And so...

Their repertoire is so fucking small, isn't it. It's just the same crap over and over again.

Oh yeah, no, definitely. And again, I listened to so much of it and it's just sort of like – because occasionally there's something new that kind of pops out and it's important to kind of know what they're saying. So I can track all the new memes and everything. But the point is also – and in particular with the Holocaust, and we will do an episode on the Holocaust soon, I promise...

[deadpan] Oh good.

[sarcastic] Look forward to that.

[sarcastic] Yippie.

...but the point of that is – they called themselves The Daily Shoah as a way of making the Holocaust not something that's worth discussing. What they don't want to have, like a real conversation about whether the Holocaust happened, for instance.

The point is to turn it into a punchline so that their audience, who are overwhelmingly young, overwhelmingly in their twenties or younger, will push discourse to the degree that any time that the Holocaust is mentioned, it's like, oh, you believe in the Holocaust, look at what a loser you are. And that's the point. That's the whole thing.

Yeah, that's really interesting actually. I'd never thought of that – thought of it that way before. I mean like – the three pronged thing. Firstly, if you have a shred of basic human decency, you're not our audience. And then there's the finding a new, quote unquote, amusing way to say that same old crap for the ten billionth time.

But the last one particularly, like – they're not of that generation that want to endlessly have the Holocaust denial, quote-unquote, debate necessarily. But what they want to do is kind of circumvent it. So what you do is you turn it into a glib joke, whereupon it becomes something that you just sort of brush aside.

Same thing with – any kind of conversation about sort of like a disparate sort of like socioeconomic outcomes between races for instance. Any kind of discussion of systemic, historical factors and it's like, oh, come on, get out of here with that bullshit. It was just that sort of – we don't even have to consider that we have disproven it like so many ways. And we're just going to pull up like FBI crime statistics, and – like the statistics about who's committing crimes are – no conversation about how that data is collected or what that data means or – they'll just mention like FBI table 43. FBI table 43 is victimization by race.

And so if you see a reference to FBI table 43, you already know what they're going to say. This is about like black crime data for instance. And any discussion of that in its appropriate context and what is – by that time you're already losing the debate because suddenly you're forced to kind of combat this meme culture by which it's just sort of become a truism. And so much of what this movement is trying to do is to create the new set of truisms that become the new basis by which this sort of discourse continues.

I was just going to say, I think that's a really valuable insight. They're trying to create truisms and endlessly put the people that want to unpack them, and interrogate them onto the back foot. Because, as they say, when you're explaining, you're losing.

So they just take these things for granted. They take them as read. So they've invented this rhetorical strategy where they can just sort of endlessly skim along the surface of things with these casual, jokey references to things that are by implication just already settled. So they don't need to...

Exactly. And then the longer they kind of run their shows and the more they can kind of get you into this meme culture to where it's all this sort of sets of nested in-jokes... the harder it is for someone on the outside to penetrate that, and the harder it is to kind of reach people with real information.

And the more enclosed you are inside what Dave Neiwert called the epistemological bubble.

Exactly. Exactly. And so much of what I feel like kind of my project and the reason that I'm fascinated by this is because, I mean this is – it poisons your brain. It poisoned my brain. I mean – hundreds of hours of listening to these guys spread this nonsense, it does affect you. I have...

Contrapoint said a similar thing about studying incels. She said that she started to sort of against her own better instincts without knowing it. She started thinking in terms of incel buzzwords, because it just got – the poison got in.

And it's just sort of the reality of kind of dealing with it and everybody who follows this stuff sort of has to have a way of taking a break from it and has to have a way of kind of neutralizing it. And it has to have that – you have to stay grounded, and...

They enjoy their symptoms. That's the problem, isn't it? They don't want to stay grounded.

Well, they will. For them the point like – this is the one point at which the – oh, if it's a white man listening to this, we're going to convince him in the end. And this is the one time when it sort of becomes the thing – where you absorb into that – this little bubble of theirs and you kind of understand their memes to the point to where – I can now see the world through their eyes. I know what takes they're going to have on a new story because I can think through this internal logic, right.

And once you realize – when I realized I could watch – I realized one day I was watching footage from one of the hurricanes and it was a bunch of African American people stealing shoes from a Foot Locker or whatever.

And, I realized that I had that immediate response of like, oh God, I know exactly what the Shoah guys are going to say about this, you know? And I realized that I could see it through that lens and I could see – these aren't human beings, kind of seeking out resources that have extreme socioeconomic depravity thrust upon them by racist white supremacist society seeking shoes so that they could sell it for other resources. Or even just wanting some fucking sneakers.

Suddenly I wasn't seeing it through that lens. I was seeing it through that incredibly racist, dehumanizing racist lens, you know? And it's a really disturbing thing to recognize in yourself. And I say it here as a way of like – this stuff is fucking dangerous. Like, I know what they are doing and it works on me occasionally, you know.

Well, I think it's a really, another really valuable insight actually, because what you're describing is what's been described as a sort of an internal switch that can be flicked. And you – I mean, you choose not to flick the switch. You found the switch through listening to them flick it endlessly, endlessly, endlessly. So you know what happens when you flick the switch: all the context, all the history, all the complex, messy reality disappears and you just see everything through this simplistic racial lens that's based on fear and loathing and you – but you choose not to flick the switch. You stay in the land of context and history and reality and everything like that.

Whereas they – they choose to flick the switch. And I think that's a real, you know, to see the world in one way rather than another. And I think that's a really valuable thing because so often we talk about these people, like in some – sometimes people talk about these guys like they're kind of sufferers from an illness, and I think there's really a degree of sort of enjoying shitting your pants about fascism. I think there's sort of an enjoyment of sitting in the shit and flinging it around the place and it's very voluntary on that level.

They choose to do it because it's kind of a – fascism is kind of a dirty protest against civilization. And these guys, they've found the switch and they're flicking it because they get good feelings from it. It's like behaviorism: press the button, get the little buzz.

It's like an addiction.

And you get like in – again in another episode we're definitely going to have talk about sort of the role of social media in sort of feeding this, but certainly so like social media likes and upvotes and retweets and such, play that game – if you can make a sort of, if you can put a new spin on a racist slur and get a thousand retweets on it, it's a good feeling and it's rewarding the worst kind of behavior. If you can trigger the libs and you can get a whole bunch of people who you have already dehumanized in your ideology to freak out at you and to throw at you, kind of the – they want people to throw them sort of the standard lines, they want people to throw them the – the how dare you, they want people to just kind of go, it's 2019, how can you believe that?

Yeah, Because they've got the responses to that stuff off pat, haven't they?

Exactly. And certainly, I mean there are videos online. I mean, Enoch was – sorry, I wasn't going to go into this, but Enoch was on Andy Warski's channel in early 2018, this was during the kind of early days of Internet Bloodsports. I don't really want to go into the details of that history just because it'll take us pretty far afield.

[chuckles]

But we will come back to this, I promise. It's a big topic.

I'm sorry. [laughs]

Enoch was on one of these live streams and he was – basically, if you – there's like a cut down version of this, which is Enoch takes on three liberals and totally owns them or whatever. And the three people who came on were – so it's like Warski and then JF, who – again, whole other episode –

JF Gariépy.

...JF Gariépy, who was kind of the cohost of this Warski Live thing. And the three people that kind of came on to quote unquote debate Enoch were: Tim demotivatoropinion, this guy Bronx Blogger, who I believe was listening to the podcast because he now follows me on Twitter as of last week or two – so hi, nice to have you on, Bronx Blogger – who is anarcho-communist – and then Kevin Logan. Kevin Logan was on.

And, these are three really bright people who like understand discourse on the Internet, who kind of understand how this stuff works. And Enoch, frankly, he completely annihilates them, and the way he does it is because he's not kind of going by the kind of standard right-wing talking points. He's pushing a completely different set of reactionary talking points.

Tim didn't even – was just trying to get information, was trying to understand what Enoch believed, he was just trying to, like, just explain this to me, I don't believe you. And he hasn't delved into the kind of racist literature to the point.

And so I can just kind of walk circles around him and that's not an insult to Tim there. I mean, not in any way. I quite like a lot of his videos. It's just – you weren't prepared for this and you went into a debate with someone who has spent years and years arguing on like Facebook political discussion groups and in terms of getting the shortest, most succinct way of defeating your enemies possible.

And again, if you're explaining, you're losing, and ultimately all you can do is say you're completely misrepresenting things. There is – this is complete horseshit and it's very difficult to meet Enoch like kind of point for point and keep your balance because he's just willing to be mendacious and lying because he's just clever in that, you know what I mean? He's very, very good at that.

Yeah, and they're very practiced.

And that's the point of debate for them, which is to performatively destroy the other side, whatever the quality of the argument, it doesn't matter. The point is winning.

Debate is really a bad forum for arriving at sort of truths, especially because – especially when one party is just manifestly not approaching it in good faith.

And I think a lot of people don't get – I mean, this is another thing that's kind of gone mainstream, isn't it? With these endless sort of Ben Shapiro destroys libtard, et cetera stuff. And what they sort of pick on, college kids who aren't necessarily the most experienced or knowledgeable people yet. And people like Shapiro and – he's very good at this as well. He's not quite a fascist, but he's definitely, very right wing. He knows how to run rings around people rhetorically, regardless of whether what he's saying makes any sense whatsoever.

And the point is that sort of performative, well, I just smacked you down, didn't I? And that's what they're in it for. It's like I always say, you can – it doesn't matter that 9-11 trutherism is a bunch of bullshit. If you don't know anything about aeroplanes and metallurgy and rocket fuel, and you get into a debate with an experienced 9-11 truther, they will wipe the floor with you.

It's the Gish Gallop. I mean, I'm sure you know this phrase, but it was named after a Duane Gish who had – he was a creationist, one of the original 1960s creationists, who would get into arguments with scientists who wanted to discuss the ideas and he would just sort of put out like 15 different talking points in 15 seconds. And then the scientists who are kind of coming in and trying to pull all that apart can't possibly cover it all. And that's – I mean, that's the Shoah and that's the Daily Shoah in general. That's just sort of the form of it.

There are so many lies. There's so much bullshit. There's so much stuff that's just completely lacking any context that I could have a full time job just transcribing the fucking episodes and like detailing all the lies and putting it out there for people. But it would be a forty-hour podcast or it would be like a book length-thing every fucking week to try to like challenge it all, you know.

And the volume of the bullshit... I mean it's not just these guys, it's the whole movement kind of relies on, there's just so much bullshit out there. They just produce so much content that you can remain ensconced in this forever.

Well I was looking at Confronting Denial. I was looking at their blog the other day, and they have this whole section that's just them debunking Youtube Holocaust denial videos, right? And you go to one page and there's six – five, six different debunks of five or six different – and this is just a sample of course, of the endless supply of Holocaust denial videos on Youtube.

And there's links to other pages about other Holocaust deniers that they've debunked, and you get to one section about one video and it's this – well he mentions this and this leads to this issue, which we've debunked here. And then you click that link and you just within a minute or two you're lost down a rabbit hole of them debunking – I mean, they do it brilliantly. I'm not having a go at them. It's a great site. They debunk it thoroughly. But you'd be there for days following the links about one twenty-minute Youtube video because the level of crap that it's stuffed with takes pages and pages and pages and pages of these brilliant people debunking it, point for point. This is part of why it works.

Exactly. And when we do our episode on Holocaust denial, there's a particular thing that I'm going to – there's like a particular video we're going to go into in some detail. And it is an episode of the Daily Shoah, so I look forward to that audience... and Jack as well.

Yeah.

I want to cover the other, a kind of three major guys.

Yeah, sorry. we did get – we did go a bit wide there. So yeah, let's go back onto...

Oh no no, I think it's a really worthwhile conversation. Honestly, I almost didn't put notes together for this one because it's just sort of like I could talk about these guys forever.

But yeah, the other guys involved.

Sure. Your kind of second in command, he is a former musician. He is kind of a former goth kid, I believe he had like kind of working class jobs coming up on, you know, painting houses and hanging drywall and that kind of stuff. He has been doxed at the same time that Enoch was doxed. He was doxed, so is real name was Jesse Dunstan. He was a formerly in a band called Mathematic the Waves. I have put a link to their fan page if you want to go listen to their music. I'm going to withhold judgment on the quality of the music for here.

Jesse did not come in – I mean he was involved in sort of the same kind of like Internet discussion forums, but with a slightly different bent. He was not as interested in the pseudo-intellectualism as much as he was in just the racist humor.

He's the guy on the show when Enoch kind of goes into his – kind of intellectual sophistry – again, intellectual in quotes there – Sven will – sorry, Sven is the name he goes by on the show, his real name is Jesse, it's kind of interchangeable – Sven will either play a drop, like they have these kinds of premade audio drops and he'll play some thing that has a slur in it or has some joke, or he'll just start making fun of Mike or make fun of something in there. Like he's constantly just kind of throwing the humor end just to kind of throw Enoch off of, whatever point he's making.

Sven seems to come from these sort of online message boards, these sort of overtly racist versions of Something Awful and that sort of thing. A lot of these have names, one of them is like – again, I apologize for the language, I told you, like some of the proper nouns we have to cover actually – there's one called like Niggerology. and this is a board, I mean it still exists. It's a shitty little website and you can go in and it's a forum and you can click on things and it's basically all – every anti-black stereotype that you can imagine, just in one place.

And if you do go check out that website, which why should you, but, you really understand Sven because it's exactly his sense of humor. That's exactly the sort of thing he'll do is just kind of finding new ways of like making fun of African Americans and Jews and using ethnic slurs. Like coming up with ever-more creative ways of describing, sort of – for South Asian people who are from India or Pakistan – the term is poo-in-the-loo. And this is referencing the fact that in this sort of racist diatribe, people from that part of the world don't know how to use the toilet.

Oh, that's it. That's an obsession with a all these people.

Or they'll call...

You mentioned Vox Day earlier. Vox days is obsessed with the idea that Africans can't use toilets properly. Anyways sorry. That's a...

...or river shitters, like based on the fact that the Ganges is filthy with waste because of – and of course there's this huge history of colonialism and such that has nothing to do with the people of India are like defiling their environment because they're genetically predisposed to do so or whatever. All of that context...

Flick the switch. Flick the switch, abstract the context, the history, everything.

It's not about like, it's about flipping a switch and then they're not human beings that are suffering through terrible deprivation. They're river shitters. And once you can put that name on them, you've completely dehumanized them and they're not your problem anymore.

So much projection, I said it was a dirty protest and that's why they're obsessed with other people's shitting. Anyway, sorry, go on.

Other figures... I'm trying to kind of get to a certain point here. Alex McNabb, who is our Nazi EMT I've mentioned a couple of times. He's from rural Virginia. He was a EMT guy. He used to call in from the back seat of his ambulance when he was on call, which – that's got to be against some rule somewhere, but there's probably no a way of like actually proving that it happened or if he was just saying it happened or whatever.

He was kind of brought up on– kind of an investigation into whether he had a, there were any incidents of kind of racial bias in terms of his treating of the majority African American population. I will put this in the show notes – as of a couple of days ago the results of that investigation have been released and apparently they can find no kind of direct evidence of him being racially biased towards any person, through his job.

And I just want to – just for journalistic integrity, I'm going to say that for– I'm putting out there for you. He is a deeply, deeply unreconstructed racist person who is a completely stupid human being who pretends to like a faux intellectualism. And this is not meant to be some kind of classist thing because he's from the south. He's just a very, very stupid man. [laughs]

The other guy now, Alex NcNabb – he would often call himself The Undoxable Alex McNabb because he went by his real name and apparently he got to do that for a year or so before anybody really paid any attention.

The fourth member of this podcast – what's the four-version of a triumvirate, quadrumvirate?

Tetrarchy.

Tetrarchy, yeah. The fourth member of our tetrarchy here is a guy named Jayoh de la Rey. Now Jayoh kind of used to hang out in neoreaction circles, kind of back in the day. He is from Detroit, he admits to being from Detroit. Which might mean...

[chuckles]: ...admits

...different suburbs. Sorry, go ahead.

No no, it's okay. I was just laughing at the word admits.

Yeah no, I mean he's open about the fact that he's from Detroit.

He has not been identified. He is one of the absolute worst people in this movement. And I'm going to justify that here in a minute. My guess is that he has some connection to the NSM people, because of just some of the language he uses and some of the – I think he's had buddies who are Hammerskins, which are the Neo-Nazi skinhead groups.

He looks like that type. He kind of talks, he talks tough, all these guys talk tough. I believe there might be some reality behind it. But he has not been doxed. And so, it would be really nice if somebody would figure out who he was and we had a little bit more context for that.

But as a way of – I mentioned to kind of do this at the beginning, as opposed to kind of talking about their jokes; just because I didn't want to kind of feel like this was going to be a funny one. I deliberately wanted to kind of get away from the jokes. But I liked the way that we did this because I think we're going to end on one of the – something really horrible.

Jayoh de la Rey, who is one of the four paid employees of this organization, who is on – not every episode, but he's on very many episodes. He has kind of guest-hosted on other shows plenty of times. He writes a segment for one of the other podcasts called the Europa Report. Well, he writes a segment called the Europa Report for this other podcast, Fash the Nation. And then that's read by someone else.

This is basically collecting all the horrible refugee crime stories from Europe essentially. So he is very well connected in this. This is not some fringe character within this. I mentioned earlier that these guys are trying to kind of rebrand as sort of like just – oh yes, we're just racist comedians. We're just kind of making edgy jokes. That's always their defense whenever they're kind of approached by the mainstream, oh no, this is just a gag. This is just something we're doing for funsies, right?

Jayoh de la Rey is unironic exterminationist. And by that I mean he believes in the large-scale extermination of pretty much every nonwhite person on the face of the planet. Maybe not immediately, but at some point in the not-too-distant future. And he believes that unironically. This is not a kind of joking position that he holds. This is a real – this is going to be necessary at some point down the line for us.

This is something he explicitly advocates, without – without caveat.

Without a caveat. And so... we've discussed sort of the pluses and minuses of sort of having a – of putting clips into the show.

And I do have a clip. It is going to be in the show notes. You can go listen to it. It is called, unironic exterminationism, if you want to listen to this. But, I transcribed this a while back and I'm going to read kind of a segment of it to give you a sense of how dark this stuff gets. That this is what's behind all the joking nature of it and hopefully listening to me talk about it will not be as bad as listening to the original text.

So, if you want to turn off this episode right now, this is pretty much the end for now. So I completely understand that. But, I'm going to kind of– now that I've introduced you to these four figures, I think reading this will give you the sense of what it's like to listen to these people talk for several hundred hours.

This is in the context of talking about the South African farm murders, which they believe is a kind of coated, slow moving white genocide. The thing that is going to happen in the United States, the second the white population drops below 50%. This is from about a year and a half, almost two years ago at this point. And so I can't give you the exact episode number, but I just kind of clipped it out and I have – and this isn't my transcription and I'm going to just kind of read segments of it, but the point is to sort of give you the needed context. This is kind of what they're talking about.

And so Enoch says,

"But was Mandela really a communist or just pro black and anti white?"

"Jayoh: Both. I think both. But the way they whipped up their people was just, hey, white people have stuff and it belongs to you. So go blow them up and take it."

"Enoch: which is sort of the future?"

"Jayoh: He knows his own people are retarded. Absolutely. I don't think it was like a Cold War move to fuck the west because the West had all these embargoes put on them too, you know. I think this was an explicitly racial thing. It was like the last stand of implicit white identity, right? The last country that had some form of segregation. And that's why every time I talk about this, I come back to this point, and I talk about this on every show I go on."

"People say, well, how do we prevent this from happening? Listen, there's no version of segregation that will ever work because somebody will use it as a cudgel against you. Some outsider will use it as a cudgel against you. And no federal body will ever allow for secession, especially not from its productive class."

"They're not going to let whites have a homeland, they'd pay all the fucking taxes down there and they wouldn't let the US do anything similar. I'll remind you, 150 years ago, 600,000 fucking people killed each other and even being a continent away from each other, we still find a way to fucking have conflict."

"Okay, well, we understand these people are retarded, so hey, we'll buy them up and put them to work on our farms. You can't live around these people. You can't have them in the next town over. Someone will always leverage them or they will leverage you, or one way or another, the shit's always going to fall apart. And that's why I get ragged on for being the unironic exterminationist. But until someone comes up with another solution that hasn't historically failed, that's where it stands."

"Sven: Hmm, that's rough."

"Enoch: So you think that just like, because the thing is and before people start to get upset about what you just said, and it is radical and upsetting, but it's also like South Africa is seeing extermination."

"Sven: Extermination the other way is what's going on now."

He's laughing while he says that.

"Enoch: So the thing is that for somebody like us to say that is like how shocking, how terrible, how awful and that's going to be focused on something that will be brought up and, oh, you're talking about like a race war. And once [incomprehensible] and it's like, well, in South Africa there's a race war, okay? And the blacks are winning that war and we're supposed to apologize for pointing out that eventually, when the demographic situation gets to a certain point, this will happen. Right?"

"And you think, oh, this can be managed, that can be managed, this could be managed. Maybe so. But so far the evidence shows that a demographic issue like in the United States is used to create social wedges, interest groups, and then you push and push and – white people are down to 60% of the United States and it's going to fall. And the conflict is only going to increase. You don't reduce the conflict by increasing the diversity."

"Sven: Well, huh huh, you reduced it to nothing once you've won. Once you've increased the diversity to 100%, I mean, that's how ethnic conflict goes. One wins, one loses, and we're headed to where they are right now, where they have these black, quote unquote, students like destroying artwork and things inside the university down there and just destroying every edifice of what's built down there. Everything they can get their hands on. "

And I think that's enough for now.

That's a deeply disturbing, nauseating peek inside these heads, these people's heads. But it goes to show they do believe this stuff and they do believe that there is an irreconcilable racial conflict. And they do believe that white people are superior, and they do believe that black people are a bunch of murderous savages, and they do believe that they have the right to kill them like animals. That is absolutely what these people think.

And that the state should be used for that purpose. That's the like – Enoch is incredibly sort of anti interventionist war. Like he kind of got into this through that. Right. But he's not sort of on like humanitarian grounds – that the United States shouldn't be killing people. The idea is they shouldn't be killing people across an ocean. Like, the idea is we should just bring all that military home and put it on the southern border and kill anybody who tries to step over the border. That's essentially the position.

Oh yeah. Libertarians and reactionary anti-statists. They never actually against state power. They're against state power being used for stuff they don't like. If it's being used for their racist stuff, they're fine with it. If it's killing brown people or persecuting black people or whatever, that's fine. It always is. Or Jews. And this is exactly the sort of mindset that you would have heard around the table at the Wannsee Conference.

Yeah.

Which is where the Nazi...

Yeah, we're aware...

...bureaucracy planned the genocide of the Jews in the 1940s.

It was kind of more of a planning meeting. But yeah, no, it's a...

It's a coordination between bureaucracies. But it's the mindset that's operative.

They don't – they very rarely go this explicit on this stuff. I want to be clear about that. But they do that specifically as a way of avoiding, sharing their real thing. It's so much better if they – they want you to think they're just a bunch of jokesters making, a more racist Opie and Anthony Show. They want you to think of them as shock jocks. That's not what they are.

These people are – and I want to be clear, Enoch doesn't think this is like – he's not looking forward to this. He thinks it's a bad thing. He doesn't want it to happen, but he thinks it's probably necessary. He thinks this is probably one of the things that is going to be necessary down the line in order to preserve white identity and...

That's always the way with the genocidal people. There's always a lot of them that are, well, it's a shame. It's a shame. It's – I mean, this is again, this is Himmler's speeches to the SS. This is saying, look, this is dirty work, you know. And we're going to have to keep it secret because it doesn't look nice, but we have to do it. It's the right thing to do. And the fact that we're going to do it and remain – something he says about remaining humane despite – absolutely obscene stuff, but that's how they think of it.

They think of this – you know, killing Jews or killing black people or whatever. They think of it as like exterminating lice or bacteria.

Yeah.

These people are fucking poison.

You don't need to tell me that. Believe me. [laughs]

I know, I know. [laughs]

If you – no, no, sorry. I – It's tough to kind of approach it that directly sometimes.

Yes. But this is what they don't want you to see. This is the – what you've just read to us is the mask slipping.

Exactly. Exactly. And this is the murderous intent, the systemic murderous intent behind every single one of those fucking Pepe memes. Every single one of those gas chamber memes. Everything that was like, oh no, we're just kind of making jokes. This is just joking around. We're just laughing at stuff that we find stupid and silly and we're just like normie right wingers who just want to consider race.

And we're just after protecting our own people and we're just doing this out of love for our people. No, that's not what this is about. That's never what this is about.

And I haven't even talked about the vicious transmisogyny and transphobia. I mentioned the misogyny. I mean, it goes so much fucking deeper than this. But unironic exterminationism, that's what this movement is built on. And that's what we are trying to prevent here. Right.

Yeah.

And I think I want to leave it at that.

Yeah. No, I mean, thank you for hacking through the jungle of this and bringing that back, because I don't know how many people would have heard that.

It's around. There are – if you kind of google it, there – you can kind of find it. There are other places it was covered on, other people who kind of follow this movement. But, yeah, no, it needs to be – I want this segment to be like shoved into Enoch's face every time he shows himself in anything resembling polite society.

Yeah. This is who you really are.

Yeah.

And we know. We see you. We see you.

This is the segment that when Alex McNabb was questioned about his beliefs in his racist show – this is the segment I wish that somebody had read this to him and said, is this something that you believe. He wasn't there for that episode, so you can't like pin that directly on him, but these are the people you hang out with, right?

Yeah. Absolutely..

Everybody who's ever appeared on the Daily Shoah, which is basically everybody on this alt-right movement, had some connection to these guys. They're deliberately hanging out with people, they are associated with people who believe this.

Yeah. And that makes them guilty.

Complicit at the very least.

Yeah, absolutely.

Okay.

That's Mike Enoch and the Daily Shoah.

At least the introduction. There's so much more...

Introduction, yeah. This is not exhaustive. This is a peek into the swamp.

Into the nightmare.

Next time we're going to do some big picture stuff I think and kind of look into a little bit of the history. I think we're going to look at the movementarians versus the vanguardists which is, more of a – it's moving away from kind of the modern movement and looking, looking at again, kind of more at the history, more sort of this division because one of the things that I highlight here is that someone like Mike Enoch wants the government to do this for him.

But there are other kind of figures who are – who want to really kind of get their hands dirty a lot more directly. And, this is a really important division and a really important kind of cleave point that, again, is not as well understood as I want it to be. And so it's really important to sort of highlight that at some point. So we're going to do a whole episode on it next week.

That sounds really interesting. Okay. Right. Well, that's next week. We should probably plug the live stream that you just did.

Yeah, we should plug our pluggables, right?

Yeah. You were just on a live stream, Queer Transmission I think it's called. And that's on the – Comrade Sarah, she's called, isn't she?

Yeah, something like that. We can put her twitter in the show notes. She was a very lovely host. I was supposed to be – I was supposed to be one of four people who kind of came on for a thirty-minute segment. Everybody else got sick or had to cancel. So I ended up kind of spending about an hour and twenty minutes discussing some of the – kind of like big-picture detail, a lot of this stuff that we've kind of covered on this podcast.

And she discovered me through this podcast. So, thank you for inviting me on, Sarah. It was fun. Hopefully we'll do it again some time. And, we did get invaded by nazis because we were doing a Youtube live stream. And so you get to watch that happen, and in real time as well. So, fun times.

So yeah, I'll put a link to Sarah's Twitter and the live stream in the show notes. Apart from that, I don't know if I really want to plug my stuff now after that, to be honest. I feel...

We should do it at the beginning. Like, hey...

We should do it at the start...

...listen to us talk about genocide. Give me money to my Patreon.

Yeah, I think – I don't know about you, but I think I'll plug my stuff another time. If you want to find me, you can find me, listeners. Thanks for listening very much. And thanks Daniel. And good night.

Good night.